Before you proceed, some notes :
1. Though individual emails and emails on important issues are more than welcome and encouraged, I would appeal all visitors on the blog not to send separate mails requesting me to individually calculate their emoluments / arrears.
2. The following calculators are meant only for serving officers. Pensioners are advised to wait since the modalities on pension approved by the Cabinet are not yet out in black and white.
3. Whenever this blog refers to erstwhile post-5th CPC pay-scales, the rank pay is included in basic pay of Commissioned Officers since the said rank pay is a part of basic pay for all intents and purposes including status as per the relevant Special Army Instructions issued by the MoD.
4. As of now, this blog is intentionally refraining from providing a calculator for serving PBOR because of the multiplicity of former pay-scales (different for the three services and also different for X,Y & Z groups) which may result in utter chaos.
1. Though individual emails and emails on important issues are more than welcome and encouraged, I would appeal all visitors on the blog not to send separate mails requesting me to individually calculate their emoluments / arrears.
2. The following calculators are meant only for serving officers. Pensioners are advised to wait since the modalities on pension approved by the Cabinet are not yet out in black and white.
3. Whenever this blog refers to erstwhile post-5th CPC pay-scales, the rank pay is included in basic pay of Commissioned Officers since the said rank pay is a part of basic pay for all intents and purposes including status as per the relevant Special Army Instructions issued by the MoD.
4. As of now, this blog is intentionally refraining from providing a calculator for serving PBOR because of the multiplicity of former pay-scales (different for the three services and also different for X,Y & Z groups) which may result in utter chaos.
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Well, this blog has finally succumbed to pressure for providing an approximation of new emoluments. I’ve been flooded with emails demanding to know what the new scales would translate into for serving officers. I am reproducing a ‘Sixth Pay Commission’ calculator (in accordance with the revised recommendations - thanks to staff corner) which can be used to calculate the total emoluments with effect from 01 Jan 2006 and also the arrears that are be expected. The military service pay (MSP) is not to be added since it has been made applicable only from 01 Sept 2008. I would also recommend that this calculator may not yet be used for the rank of Lt Col since the controversy surrounding the said scale has not yet been resolved. Also the amount thus derived would be close and approximate since the Grade Pay (GP) controversy has not yet been addressed, to take an example, the pay-scale of a Maj was closest to the civil scale of 12750-16500 which has been granted a Grade Pay of 7500 whereas a Maj has only been granted 6600. A Lt Col's closest scale was 15100-18300 which now enjoys Pay Band-4 with 8300 as GP whereas a Lt Col as of now remains in Pay Band-3 with 6600 as GP.
And friends, for all those who lament about not receiving prompt replies these days from me through email, please don’t forget that I have a demanding profession to look after :-)
ELECTRONIC CALCULATOR :
CLICK HERE FOR NEW EMOLUMENTS / ARREARS CALCULATOR ACCORDING TO THE MODIFIED SIXTH PAY COMMISSION REPORT
This electronic calculator is more accurate for ranks of full Colonel and above.
For ranks upto Lt Col, you may use the manual system of calculation reproduced below towards the end of this post.
Since this e-calculator is meant for civilian scales, the following closest scales may be selected for military ranks :
For Lieutenant, select the civil scale of 8000-13500
For Capt, select the civil scale of 10000-15200
For Major, select the civil scale of 12750-16500
For Lt Col : Hold your horses till the PB-3/PB-4 controversy is settled
For Colonel, select the civil scale of 16400-20000
For Brig, approximation would not be correct due to unavailability of equivalent civil scale, but select the civil scale of 16400-20000 (and also select additional six increments than actual in the calculator) w.e.f 1-1-2006 for a rough idea
For Maj Gen, select the civil scale of 18400-22400 (Note : An additional fitment increment of Rs 6000 would be granted notionally to Maj Generals and Lt Generals w.e.f 1-1-2006 on account of MSP)
For Lt Gen, select the civil scale of 22400-24500 (Note : An additional fitment increment of Rs 6000 would be granted notionally to Maj Generals and Lt Generals w.e.f 1-1-2006 on account of MSP)
For Army Cdr / GOC-in-C, select the civil scale of 26000 fixed
For COAS, select the civil scale of 30000 fixed
For ranks upto Lt Col, you may use the manual system of calculation reproduced below towards the end of this post.
Since this e-calculator is meant for civilian scales, the following closest scales may be selected for military ranks :
For Lieutenant, select the civil scale of 8000-13500
For Capt, select the civil scale of 10000-15200
For Major, select the civil scale of 12750-16500
For Lt Col : Hold your horses till the PB-3/PB-4 controversy is settled
For Colonel, select the civil scale of 16400-20000
For Brig, approximation would not be correct due to unavailability of equivalent civil scale, but select the civil scale of 16400-20000 (and also select additional six increments than actual in the calculator) w.e.f 1-1-2006 for a rough idea
For Maj Gen, select the civil scale of 18400-22400 (Note : An additional fitment increment of Rs 6000 would be granted notionally to Maj Generals and Lt Generals w.e.f 1-1-2006 on account of MSP)
For Lt Gen, select the civil scale of 22400-24500 (Note : An additional fitment increment of Rs 6000 would be granted notionally to Maj Generals and Lt Generals w.e.f 1-1-2006 on account of MSP)
For Army Cdr / GOC-in-C, select the civil scale of 26000 fixed
For COAS, select the civil scale of 30000 fixed
Please also add Rs 6000 in your emoluments w.e.f 1-9-2008 on account of Military Service Pay. Please also note that DA shall be admissible on MSP also.
MANUAL CALCULATOR :
Or of course, if you have the time, you may do it manually (and more accurately) for ranks upto Lt Col assuming Lt Colonels are in Pay Band-3 as per current implementation :-
Add up Basic Pay and Rank Pay as on 1-1-2006
Multiply the above figure by 1.86
Add Grade Pay of your rank (As per modified recommendations, the Grade Pays for Lt, Capt, Maj and Lt Col are 5400, 6100, 6600 and 7600 respectively)
Add three increments of 3% per year till date
On the figure thus obtained, add MSP of Rs 6000
On the figure thus obtained, add DA of 16% as applicable on date
This would be your total salary on which you may add all allowances including KMA, Tpt etc as applicable
HAPPY COUNTING
68 comments:
Please let us know the nearest civil scales of other ranks in the Army, so that we also use the E calculater which was avaiable in Staff Corner
Grade pay of Lt Col has been fixed at Rs 7600 now.
Sample calculation :
Basic pay+ rank pay as on 1.1.06 = 15900
Multiply it by 1.86
= 29574
+ grade pay of 7600
=37174
+ 3 increments of 3%
=40621
+ MSP = 6000
=46621
+ DA 16%
=54080
+400 KMA
= 54480
+ tpt allowance
+ other allowances.
Grade pay of Lt Col has been fixed at Rs 7600 now.
Sample calculation :
Basic pay+ rank pay as on 1.1.06 = 15900
Multiply it by 1.86
= 29574
+ grade pay of 7600
=37174
+ 3 increments of 3%
=40621
+ MSP = 6000
=46621
+ DA 16%
=54080
+400 KMA
= 54480
+ tpt allowance
+ other allowances.
Lt Cols should be placed in PB4 and their after the e calculations be done to get the final emoluments.
How can a Lt Col , who is promoted automatically time scale after 13 yr of service( physical service will be less for engrs , as anti date seniority)can imagine to be senior/ equal with S.E / Director , who are in JAG grade and already faced 3 DPC duly ratified by the UPSC. MOreover the UPSC selected officer have to wait for min 2 to 3 yrs after their passing out. Whereas in Army U get anti date seniority. Yes Off course Lt Col could have thought of parity with SE's/ director if as per 5th CPC they were to continue to face promotion board as well as vacancy limitations, whereas this is not the case now. Armed forces services are very respectable job and as such dignity shall be maintained . It is not gun power which shall be wielded every time in a democratic country. The Warrant of precedence of 1937 is quoted , pl go little more deep in to history and say that as per LAGAN picture a Captain was shown eq to a Maharaja , Can that be a case now. It is Indian Govt and not the legacy of Britishers any more now.At no point of time Lt Col were equated to Director/SE's, do'nt add rank pay with the basic pay , see 5th pay commission report which is very clear that rank pay should not be added to the basic pay for determination of equivalence. The equivalence till Vth pay commission was decided on the highest of the pay in a basic pay range. Do'nt get ourselves bogged down by wrong notion of equivalence. Wait , when we are getting AV singh II report , further degradation will happen as you ask for time scales without selection , degradation is bound to happen.Pl for heavens sake do'nt spoil mind of our young children' s who joins army for thrill, adventure and off course out of sheer patriotism . Armed forces can'nt be mercenaries asking for money in return of their services to motherland. There are many other avenues for earning money but all are not prestigious.
its great to see the figures of 50+. thoug -ive but the fact is
54480-35000= 19000
an approx increase of 19000
holdit!
19000*0.3= 5700
so actual increase is
19000-5700=13300Grreat thinkers are implimenting 6cpc, earlier they made us wait till we say give us whatever u like( peanuts), next even after pm has addressed
Dear Mr Anonymous.
Sorry for bursting your bubble but rank pay is to be added to basic pay for all intents and purposes including status. The MoD has confirmed it in writing now. Also see the relevant Spl Army Instruction issued after 4th and 5th CPCs. Lt Col was, is and will be (wait and see) equated with an SE.
You seem to be from MES.
the nation there is no declaration of the accepted report.
dear anom..
face the reality. being patriotic has nothing to do with asking better salary. With the current cost of basic necessities of food clothing and housing. How do you propose to put your young ones in good schools.Hoe do you think one has to maintain the same standard with the current pay.
My dear Anonymous,
Rank Pay is to be added into Basic for all purposes incl status. The MoD has clarified the same as recent as 2007. There was confusion on the subject earlier but the same was promoted by certain MES officers who were harping on the equation of Col with SE unlike the current equation of Lt Col with SE.
What is the point of starting to calculate the arrears when we are not clear of the pay/pension sanctioned. There are many anamolies that have to be worked out. It is better to be patient and wait for the final orders.
Siachen frostbite also a war injury, says High Court.
A soldier whose toes had to be amputated following frostbite at Siachen Glacier has been given relief by Delhi high court which categorized the injury as a 'war-injury case' and asked the Centre to consider his case for greater disability pension.
A division bench of HC, in a recent order asked the ministry of defence to consider the parameters for grant of war-injury pension, attendance allowance and ex gratia payment as claimed by ex-Naik Sultan Singh.
The bench observed: "To constitute a war-injury case it is not that the person must suffer a bullet injury in view of the definition of a battle casualty," and concluded that a frostbite injury which had rendered Sultan Singh an invalid, with his toes amputated, also merited to be categorized as a battle scar.
i was boarded out on medical grounds with 100% disability.i had 4and half years of service. my date of retierment is 24 dec 88. i am getting disability pension. my last average pay in 87 was 3,100 rupees .how much total of the disability element and service element of disability pension should i get
thanks
Capt deep singh
how to calculate pension benifits of a person who has been fixed at 15100/- after fifth pay commission?
Hi All,
There is a statement in the recommended report which goes like this "Consequently, the Military Service Pay will be extended to all the
posts in the Defence Forces upto the level of Brigadier/equivalent.
MSP being a new element, no arrears shall be paid on this
account. It will, however, be considered for purposes of fixation
of pay and pension."
Does this mean that the MSP of rs 6000/- needs to be added as on 1-1-2006 to arrive at the new basic . I have this doubt because for the Maj Gen and above this has been done for pay fixation.
Can some body comment on this.
dear Mr. Anonymous---plz do not compare patriotism with better pay.we (as a society) have been blackmailing armed forces for years on the name of patriotism and our forces(poor people)have been defending our borders, and more often than not,have controlled our internel riots as well........but remember they get married,they have children,they have parents and grand parents to look after,they have a life beyond forces which is as dear and delicate as yours and which is more vulnerable than others since the son of the family is away in the field.........and by the way if we take your point and accept that a patriot/defence person should not ask for better wages BUT do we not have responsibility towards paying a patriot in better wages in turn......life cannot be evaluated my dear......and the life of a person who takes an oath to lay his life to save his motherland.......well you can understand what i mean to say.
dear Mr. Anonymous---plz do not compare patriotism with better pay.we (as a society) have been blackmailing armed forces for years on the name of patriotism and our forces(poor people)have been defending our borders, and more often than not,have controlled our internel riots as well........but remember they get married,they have children,they have parents and grand parents to look after,they have a life beyond forces which is as dear and delicate as yours and which is more vulnerable than others since the son of the family is away in the field.........and by the way if we take your point and accept that a patriot/defence person should not ask for better wages BUT do we not have responsibility towards paying a patriot in better wages in turn......life cannot be evaluated my dear......and the life of a person who takes an oath to lay his life to save his motherland.......well you can understand what i mean to say.
As there is saying lawyers are there to differentiate between the truth and lie. No lie can become truth if repeated over and again. Exodus from Army is not because of Status or else as pointed out. Exodus from Army is there own creation as an officer who is not empaneled does not have any future in Army, no posting of importance / career posting is given to non empaneled officers. They are treated as II nd grade citizen, ask any officer who has not been empaneled. Theses officers also do not show any enthusiasm in work. Come and see in any unit,non Empaneled officers are always side tracked with unimportant assignment which can be handled by any body. Also they do not want to denigrate themselves by working under empaneled Junior Officers. The question is not the deptt or the organization. The real question is not to misguide our youth with presumptive theories which has no relevance . If u want to see the govt stand , then see the Govt Of India Gazette published by the Ministry Of Defence , which says the equivalence and it is with the pay scales . As per this eq Director is eq to Col and Joint Director in the pay scale of 12000- 15000 is eq to Lt Col. I think documents speaks of themselves. As regards your averments that Lt Col is / was / will be equal to SE ( see and watch as commented) ,the citizen of this country especially Civilians are having lot of respect to Army and to the Nation and definitely any Govt order will be welcome , not like others who flex their muscles, after all it were Civilians who struggled and fought Britishers to get India Independent and now have the pride of being called as Indian Commissioned Officer of our Armed Forces. Army in British rule was also against Civilian patriots.
my dear anonymous...
1. your knowledge about the history of indian independence movement and other govt rules is poor...
2. well no one is here to to teach you that...
3. one thing is clear that you r a civilian working with armed forces may be MES,CDA or BRO.
3. you have got a problem with army. u can therefore hop..
4. all the best..
Thanx for the compliments.
All are born Civilian and die Civilian The very meaning of Civilian is Civilized and no Civilized behavior is expected from other than Civilized people., It is the tradition of some one to always try to see equals among unequals and it is their the tradition to say less and keep it ...... all the best may god/ govt give you all you desire.About History one thing is certain that History repeats itself, u are best in History and you know who are the tormentor or tormented as u guessed.
I see a lot of controversy on SE Vs Lt Col. In right spirit the fraternity should be talking about generalists and not about engineers to draw a real parellel. I fail to understand why nobody has spoken about Directors/ Conservators of forests/Addl commissioners of Income tax etc. Secondly the blogger's have been misrepresenting the scales by including rank pay in the payscales. It is an established rule position that rank pay is not an integral part of pay scale and as per extent orders does not count towards equivalence.
Moreover the Lt Col scale is no more a selection post after AVSC-I and rightly placed at JAG grade i.e. 12000-16500. Colonels are similarly deservingly and rightly placed in PB-4 alongwith JAG(SG)level officers i.e. scale applicable to Directors 14300-18500.
This for the Anonymous from the MES(Probably since it is only in such org that such mindset can exist) I really pity your mindset and your sense of history. I hope you will ask your son to join the Army out of sheer pattriotism which you seem to have in abundence.
dear friends...
1 all those who r saying that lt col is not select grade so rightly IN PB3..this doesnt appear LOGICAL..
2 CAN THEY TELL HOW TIME BOUND SURE SHOT PROMOTION OF IAS UPTO JOINT SECY IS SELECT GRADE...THIS IS A FUNNY LOGIC OFF LATE I VE READ ON THESE BLOGS...AND IF THEY ARE REACHING THEIR IN TIME BOUND MANNER AND WITH SURITY THEN THEY SHOULD ALSO BE PLACED IN PB3 AND NOT PB4..
Good job done Navdeep
Some queries
1. MSP - Dt of effect 01 Jan 2006 or 01 Sep 2008?
Do we get DA on this?
2. Grade Pay - What is grade pay for Lt Col? can wait you have partially answered it.
3. TA - Is it same as Tpt allce? with clause of campus removed does everyone get it? at what rate?
4. Rk Pay - What happens to it do we continue getting it and if yes what is new rate?
5. Out fit - Amount and freq?
6. KMA - Any changes or simply doubled as been happening in past?
Regards
Kothari
WELL DONE NAVDEEP. EXPECT YOU TO CONTINUE DOING IT FOR THE ARMY MEN OF THIS NATION AND CITIZENS OF THIS COUNTRY.
two things....firstly what will be the basic pay for a lt col promoted in dec 07. secondly...is it true that all increments will be applicable in july every year. read it somewhere that if an individual has put in six months of service in the present rank ...then he/she qualifies for the first increment
Has Lt Cols PB controversy resolved?? Please enlighten.
Great job done. Yes, the Army has to be paid well to keep the morale high. And some reader's comments are misplaced that the officers not empanelled for promotion do not work. Army is a sharp pyramid and every one can't become a chief. The slashing has to be done at every stage. And the rejected officer need not be inefficient. Even good officers will have to be wasted to keep up with younger profile of the Army. I received COAS Commendation during the extended period of my service as an SS officer and even did my JC (which had nothing to do with resettlement)in good grading after knowing that i was leaving the Army within a year.
Let us not air our views in public.Ifit is what is the differance between a civilian and us .WECLAIM to be a diciplined force. OUR CHIEFS HAVE DONE a dis service by raking up the issue.Not satisfied with pay please do pensionabale service and leave.After 35 years most of the officers are white elefants .WHAT Services offer , their is no match in civil.
I find an anonymous mailer fighting tooth and nail to establish superiority of an SE over Lt Col.I pray to almighty that when he goes to heaven or hell(more likely in view of all his misdeeds all these years)he may be permitted to hold the rank of SE there too.
Navdeep,why don't you have some kind of filter to keep away such jokers from your blog.
Good U have called some one Joker . It is the tradition of some body and so called disciplined individuals who do not allow people to discuss. It is only dictators who can tell to keep shut the opinions and close the blog, Why You wants Jokers to be out from the discussion, till such time the discussion was one sided , some people were happy. Now if some factual discussion begins to start , then why to fumble, let us face it. You are the brave soldier who fights for the right . Dont give up.
And to think that we sacrifice our lives for guys like Anonymous! Boy, he sure has lost it.
There are many who wks day and night in hazardous envt, and they also sacrifice their life so other can rest in peace. Sacrificing life is the job reqmt/ pride of self for which one choose the profession. There are many unsung heroes/ profession where they lay their live. Respect is earned and not demanded. There are fanatics in the world who also lay there life but no one really care/ respect such fanatics. For army , in the service of nation , those who lay their life, we salute them and have deepest regard for them. Please earn respect, do'nt force it. In India, countrymen respect by heart our soldiers. .
Look who is talking!!
This pay commission is a bullshit, it benefited only officers and brought the poor to poorer condition.Why is the partiality in the military service pay, an officer with 6,000/- and a jawan with only 2000/-, while the pay is raised drastically from 8000/- to 24000/- pm, and for a jawan from 3200/- to 7000/-pm, does the life of jawan is easier than the officers.In high altitudes jawans suffer more than than the officers, officers avail every privileges in the Army during the field firing and exercises officers enjoy their picnic while the jawans not even get good shelter and good food these Army officers have cooler,TVs and enjoy their party in their tents. Every one knows that officers enjoy most privileges like transport, salary, sahayaks, extra pay for availing civil naukars etc,etc......... then why should they are given separate MSP, there should be no separate military pay for the officers it should be common even it is only 2000/- pm. What ever happening is not right, this will surly lead to some mishap in the future.It has created a demoral in the hearts of our brave jawans.If a jawans says you get more MSP than us then why should we shed our life , better you die for the country, what would be the answer from the country, and i am dame sure that it would happen and there will be no solution to this government. Every one say that what the jawans are doing and whats the need to give them a high salary, we are here for that day when no one would be ready to send their son, father, or husband to cut their head for this nation. We are here so you watch T20, your Indian idol, or Saregamapa, we are here so you give A crore rupee to Yuvraj and make merry in christmas, Diwali, and New year.We are nothing but Bali Ka Bakaras.Army says we are lacking of 14 thousand officers while people say, what the jawans do, then what is the need to enrol so many officers just to supervice useless jawans.
What a strange logic? You join Military and get Militry Service Pay. Then why not Police Service Pay, Railway Service Pay Incometax Service Pay?
Army has created shortage will fuly. Top brass doesnt want to fillup the vacancies by more recruitment so that their Pyramid is intact and use EC and SSC officers for donkeys job. An officer is fit only for 10 years ?
Its their bargaining power with the Govt that got much above Commission's recommendations.
Dear anno...
You have talked about wielding gun power.Thank your stars that you were not born in the neighbouring country where you would have got the taste of real GUN POWER.
Similarly others can thanks themselves that they were not born in Afganistan, Iraq or other similar countries.Can we infer as a prospective threat for similar action here.What happens to dictators and their followers everybody knows.
Dear mirror
MSP is a token copensation for our honesty,integrity and dedication to duty.You will also get special compensation the day you will prove youself worthy of it.Have you heard the saying "KAUA CHALA HANS KI CHAL".
Honesty, integrity, dedication is proved by so many inquiries against top brasses. If a % ge is worked out then it is much more than the % ge in similarly placed civilian bureaucrats. It is in the organization which boasts of its honesty
faujis fooled again....
read this and think it ur self..
http://www.ndtv.com/debate/showdebate.asp?show=1&story_id=472&template=&category=National
I really wish everyone grows up and stop arguing like small kids. Th fact of the matter is that we in the armed forces have never presented our case well enough and have been asking for silly perks like MSP and so on. Its high time we woke up and ask for parity with our civilian counterparts. What stops armed forces to promote an officer to pay scale of joint secretary in 12 years. Create new ranks call them whatever you want atleat the armed forces as a service will become attractive. There is no point in blaming the civilians for our own stupidity and remaining in the trappings of history. Its a moderm world and if for the society ranks and badges have no relevance then why should we in the uniform bother so much for them. If only criteria is the pay scales then lets ask for assured pay band increases as in case of civil services. As for the uniformed people who are trying to fight the annonymous civilian , atleast his organisation is far more intelligent and looks after his interests. I wish our senior officers bothered more about the armed forces as much as juniour officers are expected to , be it in field of proffessionalism , welfare or morality and honesty.
i fully agree with the above post, the reforms in the armed forces can only be carried out by the top brass, as you all know the army is ironically a personality oriented organisation. The reforms will not take time if implimented at the highest level. Certain points to ponder.
1. measure the actual value of the so called amenities and privelleges.
2. Are they really available to maximum % of personals.
3. Govt will find it difficult to increase your pay or promotions because of the nature of organisation.
4. Govt will never refuse any additional relevent amenities.
5. Basic realities:
- Free warrants/FormD/CV
-how many get reservations.
- Free rations
- What is the quality
- CSD facility
- why goods"for sale in CSD only"
- Transport
- not really available to maximum %
- Free accomodation
- Available to what%
- waiting time
- quality
- is it really free
- Clothing
- quality
- is outfit allowance sufficient
"SOLUTION"
After the pay commission hungama is over, there is a requirement to have Armed forces reforms commission correction board of officers to address the real issues
Dear Sayt,
Who is managing all these amenities?First try to weed out corruption from within forces then expect some quality.If ration is bad ;why dont you take the cash equivalent. Are we sure that Jawans' ration is not syphoned to officers' houses.
the annonymous who replied to sayt is definitely from the services else he would know whats the cash equivalent is , also as far as the corruption is concerned the conditions are far better in the services . Well and if armed forces are not a bright career option then pay wise civil services are no better or only slightly better , the nation knows why a person wants to join civil services. Really wish it was a will to serve the nation !!!!!
Shabash navdeep my sher congratulation for giving fitting reply to these cowards of mes,cda,gref.who are they to ask parity? It is our greatness that we are equating lt col with se. what they will do if we equate our lt with se. afterall we are doing great service to nation by serving in defence service where these so called brilliant chaps refused to serve and ran towards upsc . if these cowards do not quiet now we will throw these persons out. We have prepared fully ourselves for this. In first stage we have stopped all recruits in their industrial category and in coming times all industrial staff will be out. Simultaneously we have reduced their jes and clerks in the name of cml to 50% while we have kept intact our jcos and ncos to 100% this will ensure their ouster in coming times. Now these cowards se are left we will ensure their ouster by two pronged strategy first nip them in bud ie demoralize them from joining these services and second harassing them at every step. Thus you will see there will be no debate on equivalence when we will throw them out of our empire.
I am surprised to note such type of unhealthy discussions. The Armed forces are armed forces and no doubt it is great and nobody can equate itself with armed forces. They should be provided with all the extra perks and facilities commensurate with their dedication towards protecting their nation so that they are not attracted to come on deputation to DRDO, MES, GREF etc. There is no meaning of discussing equivalency as it is quite evident as declared by Ministry of Defence and Govt of India and nobody can change it. The Army Officers know there real equivalency very well when they visit Ministry of Defence.
well said anonymous (7.45 PM 25 Aug)...
If the govt doesn't give us our due, we will show these buggers their right place. As such we hold all important appointments and make them come to us for all petty requirements. In the coming times we will slowly reduce them to insignificant force (Anyways they were never significant) and we hold the key after AVSC and soon after AVSC II we will have more and more senior appointments with us. These directors were at par with Lt Cols, will remain at par with Lt Cols. We will not allow them gain higher status even after pay commission.
Dear Bala,
You seem to have lost balance of mind in stressful condition which is not good as army officer. Army officers are supposed to be in balanced state in utmost stresses otherwise how he will fight for the country. For god sake stop showing your irritation by using wrong words
Army Officers should not forget that they are also under control of Ministry of Defence (Headed by a Civilian IAS Officer) and they should refrain from making such an absurd remarks, it is like abusing your own father?? Can Army Officers fight with Ministry of Defence???
To
Anonymous, Aug 22, 10:33 PM
Why Army Officers are equating themselves with the IAS Officers?? If so much is the grudge against them, then why they have not opted IAS?? The importance of IAS has been clearly highlighted by various pay commissions especially sixth PC due to which they are placed some increments ahead from the starting in comaparison with other services and there cadre is well managed that is why they are getting promoted to higher grade in a time bound manner. It should also not be forgotten that all the policies are being made and cleared by IAS Officers.
I would have been surprised if the importance of IAS was not highlighted by the VI pay commission. Why only VI pay commission, all pay commissions have been 'of the IAS, by the IAS and for the IAS'. No pay commission had ever fooled soldiers more than the VI pay commission. A country that does not respect its soldiers, let alone fool them is doomed to fail as a nation state. But who in IAS cares! They are too busy in self serving and the spineless generals of ours are vying with each other to serve them as well.
Issue of Lt Col being time scale without any DPC/weeding process. If I am not wrong an Army Officer QUALIFIES for "time scale" promotion to Lt Col IF AND ONLY IF the officer has successfully passed his Young Officer Course, Part B and D promotion exams. I also like the analogy of IAS Jt Secy's being "time scale".
Dear Arjun,
In civil services cadres posts at every level are fixed and these can only be changed by the authority of a cadre review. There are certain minimum time limits are prescribed at every level for promotion to next higher level. Doing service at lower level for the minimum period does not ensure the promotion to higher level in the absence of clear vacancy. Then one has to earn very good ACRs also to be considered by DPCs.In army it is not the case where everyone who has completed 13 years of service and passed certain exams will be promoted to the rank of Lt Col.Beyond Lt Col other higher ranks have fixed vacancies hence the stagnation/frustration at Lt Col level.Govt would probably give the status at par with a director but creation of maching posts on civil side is impossible.
So please try for fixed posts at every level in army in order to have more realistic and satisfying cadre reviews.
Dear anonymus fropm MES (Money Earning Service) who are you fooling around with. You want to tell us that armed forces are currupt. we do boards of officers and you price it TEN times higher than actual cost!! There needs to be an independent inquiry into all the work services provided by MES. Honesty and MES ..... MY Foot.
My Dear Coward friend,who does not have spunks to even reveal his/her identity talking about the status of lt col.Lt col is not only from engrs/eme/ASC,they are from Infantry, also,during war when Enemies come,these cutting edge saves the nationwithout bothering their lives,no one is asking Parity,since you are having guilt,inferiority complex ,you can not achieve our respect,you are talking bullshit,Please come and see our life at LOC/siachen/ci ops,I am sure you will not go for even toilet,sitting in AC rooms talking about Parity,During war,thousands of soldiers die on the order of these warriors,on your order even your peon will slap you,we dont want superiority,but don't degrade us
LT COL J B Singh
Dear Anonymous Sept 7
Oh Oh MES is a money earning service that is why all Engineer Officers of Army are craving for deputation to MES and occupy 50% of MES posts.. They are also preparing same inflated estimate (as per your view 10 times) and at the same time claiming honesty.. wow.. what a logic... my foot.
By seeing the level of discussion and frame of mind of Service Officers, they themselves are to be blamed for the down gradation of status. Afterall, status is not a thing to be demanded but it has to be earned.
Unfortunately this discussion is going haywire. With due courtesy to Lt Gen Ashok Joshi, I am posting an article by him which attempts to put the matter in its correct perspective.
On a cold and dark night somewhere high up in Ladakh, a group of officers and jawans were huddled together in a tent that was made livable by a stove. The mood was a mix of anxiety and humiliation. The Chinese had dealt a few decisive blows and unilaterally withdrawn, leaving India almost despondent. The prime minister downwards everyone was occupied with thoughts about why this ignominy had come to us and what could be done about it.
In this gloom, the conversation over rum was not about old times and old-timers, as is normally the case when a former commanding officer is on a visit to his unit. The senior war veteran present, a subedar -- he had seen it all, from Alexandria in Egypt [Images] to Sangro in Italy [Images], with the Eighth Army during World War II -- asked of his old commanding officer: "Sahib, when we lost at Panipat to Abdali, bad as it was, at least it was a tough fight in which everyone was there, the prime-minister's brother and son downwards. The highest in the land led in the battle from the front and all of them perished but they did not quit. Even then the battle was lost. What would happen now if the Chinese come at us again? Will any of the children or grandchildren of the ministers join the armed forces and fight?" If such a question were to be raised today, what would be the answer?
The question has already been answered unequivocally by two generations since the early 1960s. With few exceptions, youth of capability have turned away from the armed forces and opted for other vocations. Their cost-benefit-analysis gave a clear indication to them that a career in the armed forces was not for them. The armed forces, as a vocation has consistently lost its sheen since 1947. At one time, the sons of two chiefs of the Indian Army [Images] served in the armed forces; so did the scions of Baroda, Jaipur [Images], and Kapurthala royal families. They did so with pride and without asking for any special consideration. They looked upon the armed forces as a matter of pride and honour and satisfied some of their own inner needs and longing to maintain the tradition. In turn, they brought prestige to the armed forces.
Does it sound medieval? Actually, it is, but so is the idea of fighting and dying in battle. Most of the present decision makers in India, within the establishment, whether they are the elected politicians in power, or the bureaucrats who are their key aides, or the members of the judiciary, live in a world far removed from actual prosecution of war and have no real feel or experience to get into the shoes of a professional soldier. The armed forces expect much of individuals who serve in them, and their families.
On the other hand, maintaining the armed forces demands a great deal of the nation in terms of the opportunity costs. No nation in the world has such surfeit of resources that it can afford to incur opportunity costs without qualms. The armed forces fully deliver only when they 'deter' the adversary from battles because even victories are accompanied by irreversible losses, particularly of life. The cost and consequences of lost battles and wars, of course, are beyond recall. Some time in the future, the effectiveness and the efficiency of the armed forces may prove to be one of the main determinants of national survival with honour. There are national stakes in the effectiveness of the armed forces.
It is for this reason that they make claims on being a national institution. Constitutionally, don't they report to the President of the Union? Apparently there appears to be inadequate comprehension of the real issues involved in raising, equipping and governing the armed forces. This is not uncommon in democracies, even amongst mature democracies. The compulsions of electoral politics often prove overwhelming, apart from the ideological baggage and prejudices. But the advanced democracies have the monetary resources including the advanced technologies; and more importantly, they have the tradition of their decision makers fighting in battles and wars extending over several hundred years. Their knowledge of war and peace is not academic. In India, there is an unfortunate belief that good arguments will prevail. They may not. Even 'truth' does not always 'prevail'.
The armed forces, in their own way, are an 'anachronism' when it comes to their unique value-system in which loyalty, courage, effectiveness, and continued defiance, even when there is no hope, matter more than the values of 'civil society'. Bereft of this value-system, and its concomitants -- an exaggerated sense of self-esteem that makes a person think that he is irreplaceable, a belief that Lord God will back him, and so on -- the armed forces may render themselves less than useful.
The decision and opinion makers too need to help the professional soldiery so that it can protect its elan. Surely, elan is not a commodity. But it cannot be the attribute of those who are made to feel second class because they cannot maintain the lifestyle that their peers do, or their children cannot go to the right schools. Money and prestige do enter the calculus somewhere. To be told that the more intelligent have to have far more because they passed the right competitive examinations does not help much.
The military machine depends a great deal on technology and its products but its most critical cogs are human which, if substandard, can cause the system to collapse. Who mans this unique national institution cannot be determined by market forces alone.
Elementary, is it not? Then how come, we in India seem to be losing our focus over past 60 years? Look at the quality of debate over the deal given to the armed forces by the Sixth Pay Commission? The letter written by the three service chiefs to the defence minister towards the end of August, asking that the decision by the government be put on hold pending consideration of the recommendations made by them has caused some sensation. At least one national daily took notice of the letter, and handed down a rebuke to the service chiefs. How are the services concerned with equivalence? Why have they shown the temerity even to compare themselves with the IAS? What's the fuss about?
It seems that the chiefs of staffs were exercised by one particular dispensation of the government on a matter that had been referred by it to the committee of secretaries at the instance of the ministry of defence. Precise details are of no general interest except that a deliberate decision seems to have been taken by the government to disturb the equivalence between the armed services, and the rest, to the detriment and disadvantage of the former. The officers in the armed services feel either that they have been brought down a peg or two in relation to their former peers, or the others have been hoisted above them. The result is the same. The officers of the armed services have been overtaken for reasons not known to them. Let us presume that there are very good reasons for the government decision. But those reasons are not known. Is it the public perception that the armed services must gracefully accept what they are 'granted'? Come on, they have a code of conduct: 'theirs not to question why'. What's the fuss about? They proudly wear the uniform. Isn't that enough? Is that the message for the soldiery that public opinion has, or is it the view of a small coterie?
But what is the rationale of decision making? Of course, the rationale has been stated by the Pay Commission, you silly. But what are the assumptions made? What has been the experience of those who made the assumptions? Was there a single member in the Pay Commission who had actual combat experience? Did the Pay Commission appoint a panel of consultants who had the combat experience?
With the kind of non-violent struggle that secured for India its independence, there were visions of India relying on the police forces for maintaining the law and order, and making do with the very minimum of the armed forces. No nation could do without them because they were an essential trapping of an independent sovereign State. They would, of course, mainly be employed by and for the United Nations to maintain peace.
Some of the idealism started evaporating as early as October 1947 when troops had to be airlifted to Srinagar [Images] to stop in their tracks the murderous tribes sent there by Pakistan. But for this timely intervention, the Kashmir valley might have been an integral part of Pakistan. The Chinese aggression from 1960 onwards brought about some reorientation in thinking but there remained lurking doubts about them mainly on account of happenings in Pakistan. Was it not important to ensure that the armed forces did not damage the polity? They needed to be kept in their place. Therefore, the basic outlook did not undergo a serious change.
The two fundamental tenets that guided the decision makers in India seem to have been:
Every rupee saved by cutting down on 'unproductive' expenditure on armed forces was for the national good.
The armed forces needed to be controlled and kept in their place by subordinating them to 'civilian control'. This in effect has meant control by the civilian bureaucracy because except when war is imminent, the actual decision makers have little time for professional soldiery.
Even now the scope of the current debate is narrow: it has been reduced to scoring of debating points by the advocates of the armed forces, and their opponents. The debate is missing out on more substantive issues. In any case, what has to be decided now cannot be postponed indefinitely. Will the service chiefs be satisfied with just another consideration by the government? The immediate problem has to be addressed: the hemorrhaging of the armed forces by early exit of disenchanted or disappointed persons has to be staunched. But that would nowhere be enough.
We in India need to move ahead at this stage, and seriously question what has been taken for granted for last six decades. But would that be enough to meet the national requirements? Or, do we require a separate pay-commission for the armed forces? We may have to go further than that. There may be a need for addressing the whole gamut of raising, equipping, manning, and governing the armed forces so that their effectiveness as a national institution is assured till, say 2040. The nation must know who will bear arms for it, and why; the market forces are poor arbiters in this matter, although gods as of now seem to have taken up their residence in the market place.
Here is a rather sad quote from Rudyard Kipling's Epitaphs of the War, 1914-18:
If any question why we died,
Tell them, because our fathers lied.
Will we deserve something better?
Lieutenant General Ashok Joshi (retired) is a former Director General of Military Training, Indian Army.
Sir,
The sixth pay commission also shows parity in fixing pay of PBOR again. A newly recruited jawan will get a basic pay of Rs 5200 while a Naik and a Havildar will get the same Basic pay with grade pay of Rs 2000,2400 and 2800 respectively. The same way the JCOs were fixed basic pay of 9300 with grade pay of Rs 4200, 4600 and 4800 for Nb sub, Sub and Sub Maj respectively. In this way a Gp Y Sub of 28 years service with seven increments will get total emoluments ie 7790 x 1.86 = 14489 + 4600 + 2000 (msp) = 21089/-. Increase in the basic pay is Rs 9300 - 6600 = Rs 2700/- only. (increase is 40.90 %) Where as a newly commissioned Lieutenant will get a pay of Rs 15600 + 5400 (Grade pay) + 6000 (MSP) = 27000/-. (Increase is 89.10 %. Almost doubled) Earlier the basic pay difference between a Sub and a Lieutenant was 1650/-. Now the difference increased in four folds. This is unjustifiable. Higher level officers are still comparing with their civilian counter parts. But no one is going to see this diiference as men in green are mouth closed and hand tied and are only to obey orders.
Will any one look into this matter ?
Dear MES Bhakta,Please forget that Engrs officers are craving for 50percent deputation,dear they are there to make sure that you are not selling the country,Remember One Lt Col GE of Ahmadnagar ensured that civilian CWE and Chief Engineer were posted out and sacked by Army cdr,Please ask people they prefer Army GE than Civilian GE,These MES SEs are worried that Army officers are obstructing their free ways,Can you cite one example where civilian SE has voiced against cooruption? nil nil ,shame on these corrupt people.I sincerely request President of India to Abolish civil cadre and make 100% military organisation,
I am sure that no body wants to see the list of Army offrs on this public blog site who have been court martialed for the (mis)doings in MES. The fact is that MES has become a dumping ground for incompetent, superceded and re-employed offrs, who have no place in their own Regts. MES, as an organisation gets maligned due to sheer incompetence of such offrs, who thrive on the shoulders and at the cost of their MES counterparts. If you got guts, tell the E-in-C to create two Zonal CEs, one completely manned by Army offrs (from CE to AGE level incl all staff appointments) and combatant JEs, whereas the other Zone completely manned by MES offrs/JEs. Let the performance of these two zones be evaluated by a team of indep Army Cdrs/Corp Cdrs. The entire Army will come to know of the truth.
Do you have it in you to accept the challenge?
For all of those who are blogging without the knowledge of actual beginning of the warrant of precedence in India. Point to be noted is that while it was by No of years for Civil Officers, Military equivlence was by Rank .
Warrant of Precedence as it exists today owes its origins in the Royal Warrant by which by which Precedence was regulated in British India, dated 10th September 1850. Civil Servants (East India Company ) had been divided under the Queens Warrant, into six classes according to date and their standings. Following is the extract from page 60 & 70 of the book “ PEERAGE, BARONETAGE, AND KNIGHTAGE, GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND, FOR 1860, INCLUDING ALL THE TITLED CLASSES.” By Robert P Dod, Esq, Associate of King's College, London. Published by Whittaker and Co, Ave Maria Lane, MDCCCLX. Gilbert and Rivington, Printers, St Johns Square ; 1860 :--
Rule 29. Civilians of the 1st , i.e. of 35 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Maj Generals.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to seniority, which is computed amongst the civilians form the date of there entering the class to which they belong and amongst the military officers from the date of their commissions.
30.Civilians of the 2nd class i.e. of 20 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival, and Colonels.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
34.Civilians of the 3rd class , i.e. of 12 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Lt Col.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
35.Civilians of the 4th class , i.e. of 8 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Majors.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
36.Civilians of the 5th class , i.e. of 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Captains.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
37. Civilians of the 6th class , i.e. of under 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
WHAT V R GETTING FROM 6 CPC IS PEANUTS . SO SIMPLE IF U OFFER PEANUTS THEN U OUGHT TO GET MONKEYS ONLY . NOT OFFICERS. SATISH
in the recent payslip the basic pay, grade pay, msp and DA has been credited as per new scales. however, allowances has not been modified. does anybody have a idea how long will it take. also, there is lot of confusion about the travel entitlements during leave for officers. can anybody throw some light on it.
initially due to only media entiir nation came to know how defence forces have been neglected by so called vi pay comission ,comitte was set up .It seems comitte has gone to the garbage and same media has kept quiet.There is a need and request to media again take up the issue as such no one comming to join defence forces .Generals may be retired or searving will not stand by you ,because they are looking for governors post.
hi navdeep.. good job.. another query.
what is the status of flying pay. In the previous pay comission it was called flying PAY and it was taxable. In the sixth pay comission they called it flying ALLOWANCE and did not give us any arrears. However for the purpose of calculating income tax, they are including the flying pay in th etotal income. Any GYAN on this anomaly?
Can any one differ between Service Pension and Special Pension and which better/beneficial as per PCDA/Pension Regulation for Army(1961).I didn't get the definition of the same any where.Please fwd it ASAP.
Thanks.
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