-
(The below mentioned is the second part of the series. Readers are again requested to keep the discussion forum dignified and not to degenerate members of other services and cadres. Though I am totally for freedom of speech and expression, undignified and abusive comments and comments with personal remarks shall be deleted. Counter-logic and difference of opinion is more than welcome though.)
The issue of equivalence of status and pay has long been a controversial one. The contention of the 6th CPC that there is an established relativity between the Senior Administrative Grade (SAG) and Maj Gen is flawed and perhaps emanates from an incorrect interpretation of the Warrant of Precedence which lists a Major General equivalent to a Joint Secretary to Govt of India. Firstly, Note 1 to the current WoP makes it amply clear that the order of precedence is meant for ceremonial purposes only. Secondly, it is not the SAG that has been equated with a Major General but the appointment of a Joint Secretary to Govt of India and that too only for ceremonial purposes. Merely because a Joint Secretary GoI happens to be an officer of the SAG would not automatically mean that all SAG officers become equivalent to Major Generals. In fact, SAG level officers also hold the appointment of ‘Director to Govt of India’ under the Central Staffing Scheme (CSS) till they are empanelled by Govt of India as Joint Secretaries. While SAG is a grade, Joint Secretary to GoI is an appointment. SAG officers who are empanelled and holding the appointment of Joint Secretary to GoI under the Central Staffing Scheme can alone (if at all) be compared with Major Generals. Unfortunately, even the past pay commissions have been treating SAG officers at par with Major Generals for pay purposes. Traditionally however, certain SAG officers have even been equated with Colonels / Brigadiers of the Army, a very close example would be that of an MES Chief Engineer (SAG) who holds interchangeable charge with a Brigadier of the Corps of Engineers. While the Maj Gen-JS to GoI equivalence from the WoP has been taken as the basis of equation of pay, the same has not been done for Lt Generals. A Lt General who features on Article 24 of the current WoP has been granted a scale two steps lower than a DG of CPOs who is junior to Lt Gen and is placed on Article 25. Featuring on the WoP depends upon the appointment of a person and not his grade, to take an example, a Chief Secretary to State Govt within his state is featured on Article 23 (equivalent to Army Commander / Secy to Govt of India) but when the same officer is outside his State, his position drops to Article 25 (below even a Lt Gen). Coming back to the self-created interpretational equivalence articulated by the 6th CPC - a DIG has nothing in common with a Brigadier except the rank badges. 100% of directly recruited IPS officers attain the rank of DIG while less than 8% make it to Brigadier in the Army. An IPS officer reaches the rank of DIG in 14 years (Please refer to Rule 3 C (i) and Proviso of Rule 3 of IPS Pay Rules, 2007 published in Gazette of India on 21 Feb 2008) whereas it takes 28 years to become a Brig in the defence services. Till now the rank of a DIG was placed between a Lt Col and a full Colonel.
The nomenclature / designation confusion : It is sad but we have been made to believe the Maj Gen – JS GoI equivalence since long and timely action was not taken about it. The problem lies somewhere else. Earlier the Secretarial ranks were differently nomenclatured than today and the hierarchy was as follows : -
Rank 1 : Asst Secy Govt of India (Article 61 of Old WoP)
Rank 2 : Under Secy Govt of India (Article 57 of Old WoP)
Rank 3 : Addl Dy Secy to Govt of India (Article 45 of Old WoP)
Rank 4 : Dy Secy to Govt of India (Also on Article 45 of Old WoP)
Rank 5 : Joint Secy to Govt of India (Article 29 of Old WoP - was equated with a Maj Gen)
Rank 6 : Addl Secy to Govt of India (Article 27 of Old WoP)
Rank 7 : Secy to Govt of India (Article 26 of the old WoP. Whereas Lt Gen was on Article 24 while GOsC-in-C were on Article 16)
This with time was later changed to the following nomenclature :
Rank 1 : Under Secy to Govt of India
Rank 2 : Dy Secy to Govt of India
Rank 3 : Director
Rank 4 : Joint Secy to Govt of India (still cleverly equated with Maj Gen since in the old warrant such was the case)
Rank 5 : Addl Secy to Govt of India
Rank 6 : Secy to Govt of India
Rank 7 : Cabinet Secretary
Hence, while the Maj Gen – JS equation was cleverly maintained, it was not realized by the services or even by the govt that the erstwhile Secretarial Rank 5 of Jt Secy had now become Addl Secy to GoI. In fact going by the changed logic, today’s Joint Secretary should have been equated with a Lt Col (equivalent to Dy Secy to GoI / Rank 4 under the old nomenclature). We just stuck to designations and not to the actual hierarchy that was changed and re-named over the years. Moreover, if we keep aside the appointment equation which has always been confusing, the length of service equation as was maintained is clear as a crystal and this should have been used as a benchmark to determine scales and status even in the past :-
(a) Members of the ICS with 30 years of service were equated with Brigadiers commanding Infantry and Cavalry Brigades on Article 32 of the Old Warrant. Other Brigadiers featured on Article 35.
(b) Colonels of all Arms and Services and Lt Colonels of Indian Medical Service (now AMC) were on Article 38 and so were officers of the ICS with 23 years’ service and also Chief Engineers (now SAG). The rank of DIG was listed on Article 45 of the Old Warrant.
(c) Lt Colonels were listed on Article 47 of the Old Warrant alongwith ICS officers with 18 years of service.
(d) Majors were listed on Article 59 with ICS officers with 12 to 18 years’ service and IP (Indian Police – now known as IPS) officers with 15 to 20 years of service.
The status equation as on date leaves much to be desired though.
-
(The below mentioned is the second part of the series. Readers are again requested to keep the discussion forum dignified and not to degenerate members of other services and cadres. Though I am totally for freedom of speech and expression, undignified and abusive comments and comments with personal remarks shall be deleted. Counter-logic and difference of opinion is more than welcome though.)
The issue of equivalence of status and pay has long been a controversial one. The contention of the 6th CPC that there is an established relativity between the Senior Administrative Grade (SAG) and Maj Gen is flawed and perhaps emanates from an incorrect interpretation of the Warrant of Precedence which lists a Major General equivalent to a Joint Secretary to Govt of India. Firstly, Note 1 to the current WoP makes it amply clear that the order of precedence is meant for ceremonial purposes only. Secondly, it is not the SAG that has been equated with a Major General but the appointment of a Joint Secretary to Govt of India and that too only for ceremonial purposes. Merely because a Joint Secretary GoI happens to be an officer of the SAG would not automatically mean that all SAG officers become equivalent to Major Generals. In fact, SAG level officers also hold the appointment of ‘Director to Govt of India’ under the Central Staffing Scheme (CSS) till they are empanelled by Govt of India as Joint Secretaries. While SAG is a grade, Joint Secretary to GoI is an appointment. SAG officers who are empanelled and holding the appointment of Joint Secretary to GoI under the Central Staffing Scheme can alone (if at all) be compared with Major Generals. Unfortunately, even the past pay commissions have been treating SAG officers at par with Major Generals for pay purposes. Traditionally however, certain SAG officers have even been equated with Colonels / Brigadiers of the Army, a very close example would be that of an MES Chief Engineer (SAG) who holds interchangeable charge with a Brigadier of the Corps of Engineers. While the Maj Gen-JS to GoI equivalence from the WoP has been taken as the basis of equation of pay, the same has not been done for Lt Generals. A Lt General who features on Article 24 of the current WoP has been granted a scale two steps lower than a DG of CPOs who is junior to Lt Gen and is placed on Article 25. Featuring on the WoP depends upon the appointment of a person and not his grade, to take an example, a Chief Secretary to State Govt within his state is featured on Article 23 (equivalent to Army Commander / Secy to Govt of India) but when the same officer is outside his State, his position drops to Article 25 (below even a Lt Gen). Coming back to the self-created interpretational equivalence articulated by the 6th CPC - a DIG has nothing in common with a Brigadier except the rank badges. 100% of directly recruited IPS officers attain the rank of DIG while less than 8% make it to Brigadier in the Army. An IPS officer reaches the rank of DIG in 14 years (Please refer to Rule 3 C (i) and Proviso of Rule 3 of IPS Pay Rules, 2007 published in Gazette of India on 21 Feb 2008) whereas it takes 28 years to become a Brig in the defence services. Till now the rank of a DIG was placed between a Lt Col and a full Colonel.
The nomenclature / designation confusion : It is sad but we have been made to believe the Maj Gen – JS GoI equivalence since long and timely action was not taken about it. The problem lies somewhere else. Earlier the Secretarial ranks were differently nomenclatured than today and the hierarchy was as follows : -
Rank 1 : Asst Secy Govt of India (Article 61 of Old WoP)
Rank 2 : Under Secy Govt of India (Article 57 of Old WoP)
Rank 3 : Addl Dy Secy to Govt of India (Article 45 of Old WoP)
Rank 4 : Dy Secy to Govt of India (Also on Article 45 of Old WoP)
Rank 5 : Joint Secy to Govt of India (Article 29 of Old WoP - was equated with a Maj Gen)
Rank 6 : Addl Secy to Govt of India (Article 27 of Old WoP)
Rank 7 : Secy to Govt of India (Article 26 of the old WoP. Whereas Lt Gen was on Article 24 while GOsC-in-C were on Article 16)
This with time was later changed to the following nomenclature :
Rank 1 : Under Secy to Govt of India
Rank 2 : Dy Secy to Govt of India
Rank 3 : Director
Rank 4 : Joint Secy to Govt of India (still cleverly equated with Maj Gen since in the old warrant such was the case)
Rank 5 : Addl Secy to Govt of India
Rank 6 : Secy to Govt of India
Rank 7 : Cabinet Secretary
Hence, while the Maj Gen – JS equation was cleverly maintained, it was not realized by the services or even by the govt that the erstwhile Secretarial Rank 5 of Jt Secy had now become Addl Secy to GoI. In fact going by the changed logic, today’s Joint Secretary should have been equated with a Lt Col (equivalent to Dy Secy to GoI / Rank 4 under the old nomenclature). We just stuck to designations and not to the actual hierarchy that was changed and re-named over the years. Moreover, if we keep aside the appointment equation which has always been confusing, the length of service equation as was maintained is clear as a crystal and this should have been used as a benchmark to determine scales and status even in the past :-
(a) Members of the ICS with 30 years of service were equated with Brigadiers commanding Infantry and Cavalry Brigades on Article 32 of the Old Warrant. Other Brigadiers featured on Article 35.
(b) Colonels of all Arms and Services and Lt Colonels of Indian Medical Service (now AMC) were on Article 38 and so were officers of the ICS with 23 years’ service and also Chief Engineers (now SAG). The rank of DIG was listed on Article 45 of the Old Warrant.
(c) Lt Colonels were listed on Article 47 of the Old Warrant alongwith ICS officers with 18 years of service.
(d) Majors were listed on Article 59 with ICS officers with 12 to 18 years’ service and IP (Indian Police – now known as IPS) officers with 15 to 20 years of service.
The status equation as on date leaves much to be desired though.
-
131 comments:
Hi Navdeep
Again a very good post.I hope some one in Services Hq reads this & takes it up with the defebnce ministry.
How does one validate this ?
Is it possible to go to court & validate it
Dear All,
If a battalion is required to be commanded by a captian, a Lt Col or a Maj Gen is the internal problem or adjustment of the Army. One can not and should not read too much into it. If Army decides that a Colonel should command a company and Goverment approves of it, let it be so.
The MES or IAS or IPS or finance have nothing to do with that. Do not get carried away by their ill informes nad ill - intentioned propaganda.
Equation of ranks and appointments between various grades is different thing. Today IGs of police anre so many that they do not even command two constables. It has not led to their downgradation.
Our Lt Col has always been equated with the director and there is no reaosn why he should be down graded.
It is none of the business of other services to decide what he does.
Why do not they question thousands of DGPs what they do. Their training schools are commanded by DGPs....
What nonsense some MOD Babus and MES walas talk on this blog...
Do not pay heed to them... Kick them when you come across when...
Remnants of colonial past! What say? Lot of water has flown down Ganges as also Thames. Let's not live in fool's paradise and invent imaginary grievances. As for "an MES Chief Engineer (SAG) who holds interchangeable charge with a Brigadier of the Corps of Engineers." is an anomaly and nothing but high handedness of the AHQ. The blogger cannot be unaware of the unrest present system is causing in MES.
MES is an appendage....
Do not worry .... time is nearing to do away with it....Now you near a building your worth will be told..
Thanks for waking up these sleeping and "Care Not" attitude people..
Why Do not Supdtt Engrs take over as Engineer in Chief..
Very revealing. To some extent the services have not paid due attention while bureaucracy was working overtime to down grade the status of service officers. Better late than never. The Chiefs are holding on to their ground. It is only a matter of time the decisions would emerge in favour of the armed forces.
I sincerely feel all the three "Services" should hire the services of Navdeep and educate themselves w.r.t. those things on which they have been found sleeping for so many years !!
Amen
A lie told thousand times does not become a truth. Yes i appreciate the advocacy skills of Navdeep who is bent upon making lies truth by repeating them thousand times. Kudos to Navdeep for his dedication...
One piece of advice though. Make your facts right before distorting them.
A nice job indeed Navdeep. Good effort to create a rift between Jt Secys and other offrs of SAG grade in other services. The other side had always been doing that for creating differences between offrs and PBORs. Keep it up.
@Anony at 10.57
Before launching your personal attack, it would be better if you loosen up your chastity belt and provide some counter-logic on the facts placed on the blog instead of making sweeping statements like
"A lie told thousand times does not become a truth."
Point out where I am wrong and I'll reply to you.
Excellent job Navdeep,
We should now seek the following justified equation now. After all everything should go as per rank structure. If the Govt does not listen we can go to court and your expertise in the subject and skills will come very handy in the court :-
Rank 1 - Lieut - Under Secy
Rank 2 - Captain - Deputy Secy
Rank 3 - Major - Director
Rank 4 - Lt Col - Jt Secy
Rank 5 - Colonel - Addl Secy
Rank 6 - Brig - Secy to GOI
Rank 6 - Maj Gen - Cabinet Secy
Rank 7 - Lt General - ??
Rank 8 - Lt Gen(Army Cdr) - ???
Rank 9 - General - ????
Wish you all the very best. Keep going.
Dear Well Wisher, welcome back. In fact, the equivalence is already there :
Lieut - JTS
Capt - Under Secy to GoI
Maj- Dy Secy
Lt Col - NFSG (Dir GoI)
Col-DIG/Conservator
Brig-no civ equivlanent
Maj Gen- JS GoI
Lt Gen-Addl Secy GoI
Lt Gen (Army Cdr) - Secy GoI
Gen-Cabinet Secy
Please keep your sarcastic thoughts to yourself. Don't manipulate tables to reflect actual logic in an absurd light.
Thanks
ARREARS PAID TO DEFENCE FORCES ON 1ST OCTOBER....
SBI HAS ALREADY CREDITED IN UR ACCOUNT... GO CHECK IT...
HAPPY FESTIVAL SEASON
CAPTAINS... RS 55,000/-
the government has decided to make part payment in October and later adjust it in the final amount
Committee formed on Armed forces pay hike
Zeenews Bureau
New Delhi, Sept 27: The Central government on Saturday formed a three-member committee headed by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee to look into the objections raised by armed forces over the Sixth Pay Commission recommendations. The Centre hurriedly constituted the committee, which also includes Finance Minister P Chidambaram and Defence Minister A K Antony, after consulting Prime Minister Manmohan Singh, who is in the United States.
Sounding optimistic, the Defence Minister said that the armed forces will get their pay in new scales by Diwali. He also added that the govt is aware of anomalies in the pay and assured that the issue will be addressed.
"The recommendations of the 6th Pay Commission is by and large an improvement from the previous commission. Still there were some issues, and we would be making serious efforts to solve them,” Antony said.
Asked how he viewed the reports that angry service personnel were declining to draw their pay, he shot back saying "nothing like that, these are media reports."
“Welfare of ex-service personnel, including their re-employment, was also an area of top priority of Defence Ministry”.
The committee is expected to give interim relief within this week, reports said. The Centre also said that all pending issues of the armed forces on pay hike will be resolved by the end of October. Meanwhile, all the service headquarters have been instructed to submit revised pay scales notification to Defence Ministry by Monday.
Following this, the Services decided to accept the revised pay scales "for the moment" and submit the salary bills to the Defence Ministry on Monday
"As the defence forces would submit their salary bills late, it will take sometime for calculating their 40 percent arrears of the revised pay scales under the 6th Central Pay Commission (CPC) to be paid this year. Hence, the government has decided to make part payment in October and later adjust it in the final amount," a Defence Ministry official told reporters here.
President Pratibha Patil today gave her sanction to the order for ad-hoc payment of arrears saying it was "aimed at helping the defence personnel to manage their Diwali expenses this year".
The armed forces (Army, Navy and Air Force) had decided not to implement the Pay Panel recommendations alleging discrepancies in parity and status in comparison to their counterparts in Civil Services and Central police organisations.
The government had earlier agreed in principle to the Services' demand for restoring 70 percent "extant pensionary weightage" to jawans on the basis of their last drawn pay. But the armed forces are cut up with the Finance Ministry over the rejection of their three other demands concerning officers.
The CPC had recommended that the jawans be given 50 percent "pensionary weightage" and provided an option of lateral entry into paramilitary and Central police forces.
The Armed Forces wanted the lateral entry scheme to be first approved and implemented by the government before the CPC recommendation on the 50 percent "pensionary weightage" came into effect.
In effect, over 50 lakh civilian government employees will take home higher pay packets along with the arrears announced in the CPC, but the 13-lakh-strong armed forces personnel would reconcile with the old salaries, to send a strong message to the government.
Among the other demands were over placing Lt Colonels and their equivalents in the Navy and Air Force under Pay Band-4 instead of Pay Band-3, Grade Pay to officers from Captain to Brigadiers on par with their civilian counterparts, and placing Lt Generals in the Higher Administrative Grade (HAG) Plus pay scales as the Director Generals of paramilitary and police forces.
see it here:
www.zeenews.com/articles.asp?aid=472284&sid=NAT - 57k -
@RDS
Wait & Watch RD Singh Sir, have faith and patience.
@Navdeep,
On the same blog, you take shelter of WOP to prove that Lt Col is equal to a director or an SE. Now you are bringing a different story to prove a different point. My condolences for your barrister's skill. Keep it up and wish you best of advocacy.
dear Navdeep. Please stop living in a fools paradise and do not raise false hopes in the ranks. It is likely that the armed forces may succeed in getting PB4 thanks to excellent media management and false propaganda, the equation was and will remain as under. Plz note you cannot keep the Brig out of rank structure:-
General -Cabinet Secy
Lt Gen (Army Cdr) - Secy
Lt Gen - Addl Secy/HAG
Maj Gen- Jt Secy/SAG
Brig -DIG/Conservator
Col- Dir(NFSG)/ Dy Secy
Lt Col - Dy Secy / Under Secy/ JAG
Maj- Under secy/STS
Capt - JTS
Lieut - JTS
As for the sarcastic remarks these were prompted by you by keeping Under Secy at rank 1 in your post otherwise ignorant of grade structure in central ministries.
If creator of this Blog is so much confident about his logic about equivalency, why not to go to court for its strict implementation. There is no need of putting all logics here. Court is governed by rule of natural justice and Constitution of India not by anybody's personal thinking.
Seeing that Forces are going to get their due, SEs have again become proactive.
Hey guys be prepared to see a reformed approach of soldiers working in org like MES and BRO.We are coming to expose you all.You have had enough of immunity under the umbrella of Army.
You guys are most corrupt entity on this earth.
APPEAL TO SERVICE OFFICERS SERVING IN THESE ORGS.
1.Act like vigilance officers and expose these guys.
2.Don't fall prey to their lures,it is part of their plan to involve you,so that you keep quiet.
3.Don't hesitate to walk upto the highest level,No one can harm you if your intent is clean.
4,Posting to these org should be taken as an oppurtunity to expose these jokers in the larger National interest.
See how they get tamed because they can go to any limit for petty personal gains.
FOR NAVDEEP.
Please don't delete my comment because every word written here is TRUTH AND ONLY TRUTH(Though blunt)
A very well developed, logical case study. Till this recent situation, I never gave attention to status/pay - nil contact with IAS officers. Service officers' attitude is to 'trust' till he is taken for a ride and is proved beyond doubt.Now,I share my succeeding thoughts.All the policy matters affecting living of Service Officers are issued by those who are not governed by them and it is natural for them to manipulate for their advantage.The real equivalance should have been maintained at various stages in terms of pay & status based on the number of years of service while designation/ appointments were changing. In my days, it took 13 yrs to become Squadron Leader, 18 Yrs for Wing Commander & around 24yrs for Group Captain.Reduction in the years reqd for promotion not only diluted the rank but also adversely effected the old pensioners - modified parity in pension. The immediate task for Service HQs is to not only present the case, based on the analysis brought in here,to the special commitee of Ministers but also device in-house system to avoid future fall into 'ditches'.
@Annonymous @12.23PM
Well said,you have yourself admitted that army pvovides umberra to corruption,point to ponder is who has to save himself perons under the cover or without the cover
CNN/IBN news (For info of all)
Govt, Army battle it out over new pay scale
Vishal Thapar / CNN-IBN : Published on Wed, Oct 01, 2008 at 10:04
New Delhi: It's a battle that is turning uglier by the day. The Armed Forces continue to defy a Cabinet decision to implement new pay scales. A truce brokered by External Affairs Minister Pranab Mukherjee seems to have broken down.
It's the most serious stand-off between the military and the Government in the last 10 years.
For a month now, the military leadership has defied the Cabinet decision to implement the 6th Pay Commission recommendations. And never before have military protests for higher salaries been louder.
Army veteran Major General AB Jaini says, "It's so bad, it's so sad. It's so bloody criminal."
Vice-Chief of Air Staff, Air Marshal PV Naik adds, "We are so agitated because we get so little."
Worried over the political implications, the UPA Government moved in last weekend to end the stand-off. After announcing a ministerial committee headed by Pranab Mukherjee to address their demands, the chiefs were asked to notify by Monday the new pay grades they had been resisting.
But even on Tuesday, no such notification was issued. The message was that the military will dig in their heels till they get the money they are demanding. The political-style campaign, sometimes involving ex-servicemen, has disturbed the Government.
Minister of State for Defence, MM Pallam Raju says, "This is very unbecoming of the Army."
The last serious Government-military stand-off in 1998 had led to the sacking of the then Navy chief, Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat.
Some elements of the current stand-off are ominously reminiscent of 1998 - like the reported souring of relations between the military and the Defence Secretary and the spat playing out publicly through leaks to the media.
The confrontation just seems set to get uglier.
For now the rank parity should be:
Rank 1 - Lieut - Under Secy
Rank 2 - Captain - Deputy Secy(Junior Scale)
Rank 3 - Major - Deputy Secy(Senior Scale)- (New)
Rank 4 - Lt Col - Director
Rank 5 - Colonel - Principal Director(New)
Rank 6 - Brig - Jt Secy to GOI
Rank 6 - Maj Gen - Addl Secy to GOI
Rank 7 - Lt General - Spl Secy to GOI
Rank 8 - Lt Gen(Army Cdr) - Secy to GOI
Rank 9 - General - Cabinet Secy
Alternatively
Lieut's rank shoulds be abolished and the parity should be:
Rank 1 - Captain - Under Secy(On Commissioning- Trg period to be counted for pay, promotion and pension)
Rank 2 - Major - Deputy Secy(04 Years of commissioned service)
Rank 3 - Lt Col - Director (09 years of Commissioned Service)
Rank 4 - Colonel - Principal Director(New)( 13 Years of Commissioned service)
Rank 5 - Brig - Jt Secy to GOI (16 Years of commissioned Service)
Rank 6 - Maj Gen - Addl Secy to GOI ( 22 years of commissioned service)
Rank 7 - Lt General - Spl Secy to GOI (28 Years of Commissioned service)
Rank 8 - Lt Gen(Army Cdr) - Secy to GOI (On Selection)
Rank 9 - General - Cabinet Secy (The most deserving Officer)
Wish you all the very best. Keep going.
@well wisher. why have you been so kind to leave lt and capt at JTS. by your imagination they should become section officer and UDCs. dont you know that armed forces have more no. of ranks for functional requirements. if it hurts you all so much, why dont you take up for changing the WoP to suit your convinience. thats bcoz, no one will ever dare do it, you guys can only keep writing on the blog. guts doesnt come sitting in ac offices my dear friend,all the debates on tv that iv seen agrees to armed forces point of view, the general public is as such sick of you guys, god forbid a day of uprising comes, when the general public of india will throw you out in the streets.
@terminator
Now don't pretend that you didn't understand what I said in my previous comment.
Do you want your dosier to be put on this post.
Feigning ignorance is not going to change public perception about you and your services(or is it dis...).
I want your opinion of doing away with IAS.This service,once had Officers who were the best in business.A natural degradation of the moral fibre has taken place so much so that these days people join the service to make money officially.
In ever other country,there are well qualified technocrats doing the jobs of these secretaries.I do not understand what qualification these guys have to shift portfolios from one department to other.
Plz do not construe this as an attack on IAS.There are few good men (though a species nearing its extinction)there too.
All are requested to give opinions
@terminator
Dosier ke naam se daar gaya kya?
Tum log vigilance word se itna khauf kyon khate ho yaar???
exellent navdeep
however two poits for ur consideration.
1.how do u visualise implementation of SAG to doctors in the armed forces,paramilitary forces,old pensioners from similar stages/
positions vis a vis doctors of certain categories in civil services being placed in SAG as per 6cpc.In armed forces an AMC officer with 20 yrs service is a Lt Col whereas in central civil services he/she may be placed in SAG.
2.Stars of brig rank appear to be similar but if u look closely their shapes r not exactly same.This was mentioned sometimes when I was in service.Please give ur valued opinion on this and the notion of equivalency on this account.
Oct02,2008,02PM
Excellent post Navdeep.
However two points for ur consideration.
1.How do u visualise implementation of SAG to doctors in the armed forces,paramilitary forces,old pensioners from similar stages/
positions vis a vis doctors of certain categories in civil services being placed in SAG as per 6cpc.In armed forces an AMC officer with 20 yrs service is a Lt Col whereas in central civil services he/she may be placed in SAG.
2.Stars of brig rank appear to be similar to that of a DIG but if u look closely their shapes r not exactly same.This was mentioned sometimes when I was in service.Please give ur valued opinion on this and the notion of equivalency on this count.
RAW DEAL TO MEDICAL DOCTORS OF ARMED FORCES MEDICAL SERVICES:-MED DOCTORS IN CHS AND CGHS HAVE BEEN GRANTED DYNAMIC ACP SCHEME EXTENDED UPTO SENIOR ADMINSTRATIVE GRADE(GRADE PAY OF RS10000 IN PB-4)FOR THOSE HAVING 20YEARS OF REGULAR SERVICE. ALSO ALL MED DOCTORS IN ORGANISED SERVICES OR HOLDING ISOLATED POSTS ARE COVERED BY DACP.(PARA 12 OFMINISTRY OF FINANCE,DEPT OF EXPENDITURE RESOLUTION NO1/1/2008-IC DATED 29AUG2008) MED DOCTORS OF AFMS CAN ONLY REACH THE RANK OF 'LT COL' IN 20 YRS SERVICE WHICH IS IN PB-3 WITH GRADE PAY OF RS7600 ONLY AS PER THE RECCOMENDATIONS OF THE 6TH PAY COMMISSION.MED DOCTORS OF THE DEFENCE FORCES WORK UNDER SEVERE CONDITIONS OF SAICHEN GLACIER , HIGH ALTITUDE LOCATIONS,CI OPERATIONS ETC AS COMPARED TO THE CIVILIAN COUNTERPARTS.HTIS HAS LED TO A SEVERE LOWERING OF MORALE IN THE MILITARY DOCTORS AND MOST ARE PLANNING TO LEAVE FOR THE WELL PAID PRIVATE SECTOR.THIS GROSS ANOMALY CAN BE CROSSCHECKED BY YOUR SUPPORT STAFF AND BE PUT UP TO THE COMMITTEE OF MINISTERS GOM,. S RASTOGI
@annonymous @1.42Pm
U r welcome
Welwisker said:
"If creator of this Blog is so much confident about his logic about equivalency, why not to go to court for its strict implementation."
Inshah Allha! That will also happen Friends. If you carry on with that rotten attitude, many more qorse things will happen> It has not happened so far was due to Gentle Behaviour of the Armed Forces.
However your viral fever seems to be catching very fast on them....
How dare you compare yourself with Uniform...have a little respite....Fish do not compare with Tigers..
Do not remain under halluciniation or the Pakies will elevate you to a generals post with a bomb blast..
Have a nice dream..
@Navdeep,
ur views/interpretations in this blog r at variance and even contradict ur earlier position. In the same MES where 'Chief Engineer (SAG) who holds interchangeable charge with a Brigadier of the Corps of Engineers.' and 'traditionally been equated with Colonels / Brigadiers of the Army', Superintending Engineer (NFSG) holds interchangeable charge with a Colonel of the Corps of Engineers and Executive Engineer (STS/JAG) who holds interchangeable charge with a Lt Col/Col(TS) of the Corps of Engineers. Not only this, There have been cases of Lt Col/Maj holding charge of Asst Garrison Engineers tenable by even Asst Engineers (Gp B offrs) on the civil side. Why don't u draw equation from these examples.
@anony @ 2008 9:57 AM :Do not worry .... time is nearing to do away with it.
Believe me the day MES is totally militarised/civilianised (or civilised pun intended )or atleast the issue of equivalence is settled, it will be the golden day for all of us on either side of the divide. Just one problem: civilians constitute about 95% of MES.
Excellent Navdeep sir. In Navy, Commodores, equivalent Brig, are not by selection but on completion of 5 years as Capt. And a Cmde get reverted to Capt when he go on board ship.He again become Cmde on completion of ship tenure.Capts while serving on board may get promoted to Rear Admiral if he is due. So as you wrote,Brig /Cmde/Air Cmde is not equated to any civil rank
@ Navdeep
In this blog you said "it is not the SAG that has been equated with a Major General but the appointment of a Joint Secretary to Govt of India and that too only for ceremonial purposes. Merely because a Joint Secretary GoI happens to be an officer of the SAG would not automatically mean that all SAG officers become equivalent to Major Generals. In fact, SAG level officers also hold the appointment of ‘Director to Govt of India’ under the Central Staffing Scheme (CSS) till they are empanelled by Govt of India as Joint Secretaries. While SAG is a grade, Joint Secretary to GoI is an appointment. SAG officers who are empanelled and holding the appointment of Joint Secretary to GoI under the Central Staffing Scheme can alone (if at all) be compared with Major Generals."
Art. 26 in the WoP Reads as follows:
"Joint Secretaries to the Government of India and Officers of equivalent rank.
Officers of the rank of Major General or equivalent rank."
Isn't there a discrepancy in what u say and what the Art.in WoP mean ?
If Offrs in SAG are not EQUIVALENT to Jt Secy To GoI then who is ?
The services seriously need to do some introspection about the ranks and no. of levels. Saying that for the services functioning the present no. of levels is a must will only worsen the situation. Whether a Col today does a job that was being done by a Major 15 years back is of no consequence, it does not degrade the rank. One cannot live in isolation. The promotions need to be made faster atloewr levels, so that An oficer reaches the level of Col by 14 years. It is high time the services act, studying history will not help, because it can be interpreted in many ways.
@ for those suggesting armed forces to go to court for parity...
HOW ABOUT ARMED FORCES MAKING THEIR OWN LAWS..THAT WILL SUITE U ISNT IT..
IF CIVIL SERVICES DONT CHANGE THEIR ATTITUDE TOWARDS DEFENCE FORCES THEN FUTURE IS NOT VERY ROSY
http://www.merinews.com/catFull.jsp?title=An%20insight%20into%20the%20psyche%20of%20the%20armyman!&articleID=143474
INSIGHT INTO THE PSYCHE OF SOLDIER!
Ever wondered, why a young boy freshly out of a school/college decides to join the army? Do you think he's crazy? Yes, he is. He is crazy to hold his head high adorning that uniform, he's the one who'll give up his life just to let you sleep in peace.
"Three chiefs refuse to accept and implement the Sixth Pay Commission".
SOUNDS SOMETHING like a military coup, Isn’t it? Something on lines of what we have witnessed often in our neighboring country, but completely unheard of in our great nation. It’s a matter of shame and such a behaviour should be condemned! How can these chiefs who are responsible for safety and security of the nation behave in such an irresponsible and revolutionary manner. They are only supposed to serve us quietly!
Hmmm but wait a second...
Why are these guys making so much of noise? Despite knowing what could be the consequences of speaking against a government, why are they still speaking out? It’s not true to the character which they have displayed for past six decades. So, why now? Let’s try and understand them.
Ever wondered, why a young boy freshly out of a school or college decides to join defence forces? He knows for fact that this is not a well-paying job. But still this young boy decides to go ahead. Why? Do you think he crazy?
‘Yes’ I think, he is "crazy". One has to be crazy to decide upon an unstable, disciplined, confined, constrained, tough and a risky carreer with "peanuts" as pay package.
But look within him and you will notice that he is a driven soul, something drives him to the point of being that crazy. All he wants to do is, to put on that uniform and walk with his head held high with pride, because he would be an armyman then. An officer, ready to fight for the safety, integrity and sovereignty of his country and his countrymen, even ready to lay down his life, when needed. He wants to shoulder that responsibility and feel proud of it. He wants to be a part of the "last bastion of this nation".He willfully volunteers for a tougher life. When his peers working in the civil streets, after a hard day’s work, are having a good time in a pub or a discotheque or are busy chasing beautiful girls, this young lad of 21 years, is leading his men in war or in counter insurgency operations with bullets flying awfully close to him. He might be flying a MIG-21, fighting a war in a place like Kargil; he might even be saving lives in some godforsaken flood ravaged area. He might be training for the war so that his countrymen can sleep, peacefully.
He goes through a "lot" in his life and so does everyone else, related to him. Most of the times, he knows that his next step could be his last, he even knows that the meal that he is having could be his last. He knows that he might be looking at his loved ones for the last time as he departs for his duty. He even knows that he might have spoken to his family for the last time, as he keeps the receiver down. There are a lot of such like things that he "knows" but still, there are some, which he does not know. For example, he does not know, what a home really feels like. He does not know what his parents are going through in his absence, he can never be there for them. He can never be, besides his wife when she needs him the most. She is left all alone to fight her day-to-day battles all by herself, while he fights battles for the nation far…far away from her. She does not even know, when he will come home, or if he will come home wrapped up in a Tri-cColour.
But, she is brave, because he is crazy and she knows that and is proud of that fact. He would never know when his kid took his first steps, he would never know how he is growing each day, he would never know what being a father really means, because he is, but a visitor to his own home. Mostly, he will reach home after his old parents have already passed away. He might be able to reach just in time to light up the pyre. But...despite, all that he carries out his duties quietly and proudly and when the nation asks for a sacrifice of his life, he shouts bravely and loudly, "Bharat Mata Ki Jai" as he stares straight into the face of his very death, no wonder he is crazy.
What can describe our crazy man and the kinds of his, better than these lines from the famous poem written by Alfred Lord Tennyson titled the " Charge Of The Light Brigade".
"Someone had blunder’d:
their’s not to make reply,
their’s not to reason why,
their’s but to do and die"
Sadly, the government is playing bureaucratic politics with this crazy man of ours. We have dishonoured his commitment.
Let’s not demean him by conveying to him that the nation does not really care for him, that his life means, just another headline in the newspaper. Let’s not demean him by making him beg for a better treatment, which he deserves, beyond all doubts. He deserves it even more than we all do, because what he and his family really gives to the nation is beyond our comprehension.
No doubt, we can never compensate completely for what he and his family continues to lose in their everyday life, but at least as nation loving patriotic citizens, we can show him that we respect him for what he does for us. We have to stand by him now, as he stands by us in the ‘need of the hour’. We have to speak out and get him what he is asking for and what is rightfully his, we have to restore his ‘honour’ and ‘pride’ and let him know "we care"
"When can their glory fade?
O’ the wild charge they made!
all the world wondered.
honour the charge they made,
honour the light brigade"
SAG is definetely not equivalaent to Joint Secretary...
Equivalalents are other appointement in All India Services and Army....
There are many SAGs rotting in Army HQ, Ministries and other departments...
If all of them start claiming to be equivalant to Joint Secretaries then IAS people will commit suicide...
SAG is meant to to rot and prep to go to Haridwar....Om Namo Shivaya
@S.RASTOGI &COL.UDAI SINGH,..In CHS/RAILWAYS the batch of 1977,recruited doctors have not been promoted to SAG so far .ie even after 31 years. 20years SAG IS A like oasis in a desert.IF AMC brings down col. selection on par with other ARMS ,it will be a achivement.
To say that "rank pay is not to be added for status would mean that all ranks from Lt up to Brigadier enjoy the same status. And If that be "TRUE" the govt should give grade pay of 8900 to Lt to Brig in PB4
To say that "rank pay is not to be added for status would mean that all ranks from up to Brigadier enjoy the same status." If that be "TRUE" then all ranks from Lt to Brig should get Grade Pay of 8900 in PB4, as is the case for all three NFSG combined together for the upper most scale when equating to Lt Col.
As MES guys why are you missing out on two posts in between SE(14300) and CE i.e. Principle Director and ACE.
@anonymous 8:10,8:18 ,then either we should put on LT or Brig applets on our shoulders.JUST because rank pay is not for status it does not mean that a LT AND BRIG. are on same footing.LETS us not argue like illlitrates.LETS us behave like gentlemen. we are identified by the rank we put on .would you like to put on the rank pay you are drawing around you neck so that your status will be known.,it will add more confusion.
@ all Army/Navy/Air Force Officers
Why do you respond to the comments/rants of the minions of MES/BRO/DGAQA/DRDO/Survey of India et al? Why do give respectability to their comments by responding to them? Let them cry hoarse and fight for whatever equivalence they demand?
@ all MES/BRO/DRDO/DGAQA/Survey of India
The military officers are trying to set right the anomalies that have been deliberately introduced by the babus in the status of Military Officers vis a vis Officers of the All India Services. The govt has understood the problem and is at it to rectify the anomalies asap. Our Chiefs are in dialogue with the govt.
Jab do bade baat kar rahe hon to bachche beech mein nahin bolte. Aap apna problem anomaly committee ko bata dijiye. they will look into the grievances and will do something if there is any merit in them. Alternatively, you can petition the three gallant chiefs to look into your problems too. I am sure they will not disappoint the crying babies.
Navdeep and fellow bloggers and S Rastogi in perticular as the initial comments are your and so is the language in many places and these are my further two bits Please look into the plight and the raw deal to medical doctors of armed forces medical services
Medical doctors in CHS and CGHS have been granted dynamic ACP scheme extended upto senior administrative grade (grade pay of rs10000 in pb-4) for those having 20years of regular service. Also all med doctors in organised services or holding isolated posts are covered by DACP. (para 12 of ministry of finance, dept of expenditure resolution no1/1/2008-ic dated 29aug2008) med doctors of AFMS can only reach the rank of 'Lt Col' after years and years of service which is in PB-3 as of now with grade pay of rs7600 only as per the recommendations of the 6th pay commission. The doctors are to be considered for promotion to Col in the 19 th year but in actuality many of us are still waiting to be considered , after this we need to miss our boards three times to be considered to have been superseded (as per what logic never been able to decipher, more so this too is branch specific, were in officers of other branches who are junior to start with become senior as Cols, is this not supersession? if that be so why have a uniform lets be in civvies and be called doctors not by rank why do you want us to disrobe thrice before we can regain our honour to wear our pants again doesn’t the same IZZATO IQBAL apply within the organization or it is some what different? ) Med doctors of the defense forces work under severe conditions of Saichen glacier, high altitude locations, CI operations etc as compared to the civilian counterparts and are in no way less qualified also are with the same combat element as far as the services are concern but still considered as support service, undergo the same Para and commando course and still a support service, posted in the same unit doing same plus medical duties as well but still remain support service . This has led to a severe lowering of morale in the military doctors and most are planning to leave for the well paid private sector. To top it all further there is no exit policy which is transparent and just. This gross anomaly can be crosschecked by your support staff and be put up to the committee of ministers GOM. Now that we are at it! may as well, indulge in some internal reforms as well, and set as many of the wrongs to right. I don’t know will we ever unite and wake up to the arousal level that we have reached now (NO pun intended) how ever I do believe the this will not happen because the inertia and energy as usual are maintaining the mis- match that was always there. So is the lack of intent.
Dear Navdeep.
Can we have some authentic input regarding awards for the purpose of admission to PU tech colleges.
I believe there has been a court judgement cofirming that commendations are also award.
Which all commendations are covered under this?
How was the interaction with the President of India?
Regards.
@ All
BJP has now go into the act!
PRESS RELEASES
September 30, 2008
The Prime Minister of India,
South Block,
New Delhi.
Dear Mr. Prime Minister,
Defence preparedness of our country is most onerous and sacred duty of the prime minister. Motivation of armed forces personnel is fully implied in it. Huge short fall of young officers and early retirement age of men below Officers Rank in the Defence forces are matters of great concern. This should have been sincerely addressed by the Central Sixth Pay Commission and more importantly the Central Government.
In the long loyal history of our chivalrous Armed Forces, there have been no occasions, albeit except in 1857 AD, when they have felt so slighted, neglected and humiliated as of now. It is due to the dispensations meeted out to them by the 6th Central Pay Commission. The previous Central Pay Commissions too had inflicted serious blow to the status of the Armed forces personnel. Nothing, for the armed forces could be more hurting than this.
The awards of the 6th Central Pay Commission have been resented by all the three services all over the country from day one. Now the three Service Chiefs have also expressed their dismay over it. This makes it an extremely unprecedented situation. This should be an issue of great concern to the Government. Is the Government caring about it? The answer seems to be NO. Instead of taking up the issue squarely the government has resorted to SHAM exercise of setting up of committees, in a routine way, and without commitment to the cause of the Armed Force Personnel.
For ready reference I am giving below the broad issues which the armed forces personnel want to be addressed :-
a) Restoration of PARITY; in pay/emoluments/career prospects of jawans, sailors, airmen and defence officers with their counterparts in the civil services based on the length of service, keeping in mind their ELITE ROLE TOUGH SERVICE CONDITIONS and early retirement age.
b) Restoration of the Warrant of Precedence of all ranks of armed forces personnel to the date of the adoption of our constitution i.e. 26 January 1952.
c) Grant of One Bank and one PENSION for the VETERANS.
My five decades, social and political work experience bears me out that it is the Indian Armed Forces who are the genuine unity and integrity keepers of our country.
In the best interest of our Nation, I urge you to accept their justified demands.
Let it not be too late.
With regards,
Yours sincerely,
(VIJAY KUMAR MALHOTRA)
BRITISH LEGACY.Equivalance is for ceremonial purposes only.ONLYway out for equivalanceis faster promotions. 4years -major, 9lt.col,13col, 16 BRIG, 18 MAJ.Gen UNIT TO be commanded by BRIG. COMPANY by col. BRIGADE by MAJ.GEN.
DIV BY.LT.GEN. Remaining iam leaving to your imagination .
ARE WE READY FOR IT. If not forget about equivalance. col is col in ARMY. CAPT IS A CAPT. LET US NOT COMPARE WITH CIVILIANS AND DEGRADE
OURSELVES.AS FAR PAY IS CONCERENED WE SHOULD HAVE A SEPARATE PAY COMMISSION. Even a pay separate
pay commission also will not solve the issue .MINDSET at ehlons
have to change.
All this is sad, very sad. All the advertisements to attract good young people to a career in the armed forces has come to zero. I hope the Prime Minister does something good quickly and gives the armed forces what they want and genuinely deserve and keeps their spirit and image high.
@anonymous 2Oct 2008,8.34pm
A provision for promotion to certain categories of doctors to SAG has now been made in 6CPC.Its implementation will take some time.It may be possible in civil services as consideration of this factor must have lead to creation of the provision.
In armed forces¶military services this doesn’t seem to be possible as it gives not only higher emoluments inPB4(start point of SAG is not clear so far but expectedly will be on a higher level of the band) in addition to NPA, but also higher status of grade pay of Rs100000 (equvalent to a maj gen)to a doctor with 20 yrs of service(at present a Lt Col inPB3).This much elevation in rank isn'tpossible/acceptable/desirable/logical from command control,operational and structural/organisational point of view.I myself am a retired AMC doctor.I would never like to distort the army rank structure in such a gross manner.
Similar should be the case for other doctors in uniform.
Had there been some military member on the pay commission this point would have been highlighted at an early stage and some solution would have been worked out.I donot know the solution at this stage which is the reason I asked Navdeep his point of view as he is dealing with the subject with a great degree of dedication &precision.
Grade pay of a colonel is Rs8700 as of now.So early selection board to the rank of colonel ,as suggested by u, is not the complete solution .If u still have a better solution in ur mind,please do mention.
For Personal Attention of Maj Navdeep and his valued Comments. HAG+ for Lt Gen : We may get HAG+ for our Gen but IAS/IPS lobby has very cleverly upgraded their (ALL) DGPs in the states to that rank. Initially their will be ONE DGP-in-Chief subsequently when Chief Ministers at state level change, the current one will be removed (but will continue to enjoy the status and the pay) and a NEW DGP-in-Chief will be posted. In this manner you will find that all the DGPs will become DGP-in-Chiefs. Govt should pass a LAW that Their will be only ONE DGP-in-Chief in states/org having police force greater than ONE LAKHS and to be made (upgraded) equivalent of corps Cdrs(and equivalent ranks in Navy and AF). All PSOs of the rank of LT Gen at Comd and Army HQ be place in HAG+. More than this for Police/Para Mil Should not be accepted as it would lead to very serious damage to the command structure of Armed Forces.
Will number of years from lt col to the rank of Col(TS) remain 26 yrs or will it reduce after the implementation of AVS II?? Any one??
@Anno at 4.41pm.
Relax friend,once you get pb4 lt col or col(ts) is not going to make any difference.
Anyway, avs2 is for senior lots,you had your share in avs1.
Ans 2 anonomus @4.41pm. Status wise it does in Armed forces.
@COL.UDAI SINGH 4.34PM.
I have shared the information about CHS /RAILWAYS so that our brother officers in AMC dont get disheartend.THERE IS NOTHING new in SAG at 20 for CHS/OTHER CENTRAL GOVT.DOCTORS recruited through UPSC.RULES PROVIDE for SAG at 20years .BUT it is never implemented.
AS far as SAG SCALE IS concerened ,the start point is 44700+10000+(6000,FOR INTIAL FIXATION ONLY). What you said about command structure iagree with you, same was in my mind when i wrote that it is like a oasis in a desert for civilian doctors and also for AMC. CIVILIAN DOCTORS get PB4 IN ORGANISED SECTOR in 13 years.
Great news, AVSCII approved
@anonymous 8:12pm
what is great about
I agree with the eq as given in earlier WOP. I have come across a British Govt Notification in year 1967 signed by the then Viceroy of India in the name of Queen . The document is so fragile and unreadable that it can ‘nt be scanned properly, however I have tried to put it on web site, visit http://eqdebate.com/eq/1967/GOI/appendix/1256
While we are demanding eq the same should be asked for all the ranks and let the civilians understand their parity completely. They should understand that all civilian ranks emanated from the Army Estt only as there was no civil administration before the advent of Britishers. Pre Britishers era there was only Military and Military rule. It was only in British Raj that some of the Govt functions were given to civil set up . How a child i.e. civilian hierarchy can grow bigger than the parents i.e. Army. So let is not forget to bring in complete justification , by bringing in the entire rank structure for correction
Sepoy LDC
Lance Naik UDC
Naik Asstt
Hav Office Suptd
Nb Sub Section Officer( Gp B)
Sub Tehsildar( Gp B)
Sub Maj Deputy Collector of Revenue ( Senior Gp B)
Lieut - JTS
Capt - Under Secy to GoI
Maj- Dy Secy
Lt Col - NFSG (Dir GoI)
Col-DIG/Conservator
Brig-no civ equivlanent
Maj Gen- JS GoI
Lt Gen-Addl Secy GoI
Lt Gen (Army Cdr) - Secy GoI
Gen-Cabinet Secy
Flaws in traditional comparison behind lowering status
Vijay Mohan
Tribune News Service
Chandigarh, October 1
As the status of Lieutenant-Colonel and Lieutenant-General vis-à-vis their civilian counterparts continues to hang fire, it appears that incorrect representation of past scales under comparative tables in the Sixth Pay Commission’s report may be responsible for degradation of status and pay of officers.
Sources reveal that the pay panel in its report had formulated a historical tabulation of scales of military and civil officers in which the rank of Lieutenant-Colonel has been shown against the junior administrative grade (JAG) instead of the non-functional selection grade (NFSG) of the civil services.
The pay of a Lt-Col was shown as Rs 1700-900 while that of the NFSG was shown as Rs 2000-2250 under the table for the 3rd pay panel. Experts, however, say that there were three NFSG grades in the 3rd pay panel, out of which only the highest one has been “conveniently” reproduced in the table. The two other NFSG grades were Rs 1650-1800 and Rs 1800-2000 and the Lt-Col’s grade was placed between them.
Both these grades were shifted to Rs 14,300-18,300 by the 5th pay commission, while Lt-Col was granted Rs 15,100-18,700. The sixth pay panel, however, placed Lt-Col along with JAG in the band of Rs 15,600-39,100 instead of NFSG (Rs 37,400-67,000) in which the erstwhile closest counterparts of Lt-Col were shifted.
Another anomaly reflected in the tables relates to the rank of Captain, which in turn had a cascading effect on higher ranks, sources said. While the rank of a Captain has been shown against senior time scale (STS) in the 3rd pay panel tables, it has been shown against junior time scale (JTS) bunched with Lieutenant under the FPC tables. Experts point out that there was no recommendation of down gradation of Captain from STS level by the fourth or the fifth pay panels, and the same is a self-created equation by the sixth pay panel with no official back-up.
The non-addition of rank pay into basic pay of service officers for equivalence purposes is also refuted by some experts. Maj Navdeep Singh, author of a book on military benefits, says that rank pay was carved out of basic pay by the first pay panel and it had recommended the same integrated scale of Rs 2,300-5,100 for 2nd-Lieutenant to Brigadier, with rank pay as the differentiating factor.
To say that rank pay is not to be added for status would mean that all ranks from up to Brigadier enjoy the same status. A group of officers set up by the government after the 5th pay commission had recommended that an Army officer in his 14th year of service should have parity with an NFSG officer of the civil services. Several retired officers also point out that special army instructions issued by the ministry of defence clarify that rank pay is a part of basic pay for all purposes.
I fully endorse the views of col vt venkatesh (retd). Someone who is based in Delhi should fwd a copy of this Post of Navdeep (2nd Oct 7:51 AM) to one of the three chiefs. Alternatively if anyone has the Email add of any one of the chiefs then an Email with an att can be sent to them. I can also do it if the Email add of any one of our chiefs is sent to me. My Email add col_kushal30@rediffmail.com
In Response to TOI News Item - Govt nod for more officer-level posts in Forces
The cadre strength of the Armed Forces is 67,540 officers. Currently they are short by a staggering 14,264 officers. Only 30 percent ever used to reach the rank of Lt Col The poor rank that has been now denied the priviledge of being in pay band four where as his quivallants have been moving up. Only 15 percent of the cadre strenth ever rech Colonels rank. No wonder nearly 3,000 officers sought premature retirement from the Army alone in the past three years.
For a force of 67, 540 officers, existing 416 three-star and two-star generals equivalant ot Joint Secretary and Additional Secretaries, is just point 61 percent. Add 140 more to that and the percentage figure is ponit eightytwo percent to be achieved in five years. Is that what you call movement towards being top heavy! It is a poor joke.
Contrast that with IAS which has a total cadre strenth of 1595. In 1981 there were 60 secretary-level positions at the centre which has risen to 250 . Out of those about 225 are held by IAS.. Secretary-level positions have now - the nigh 200 additions all having been created for and occupied by the IAS.secretary-level officers (Rs.80,000) - at which almost 100 percent IAS officers retire notwithstanding the much-touted pyramidal structure declared for consumption of public, ploticians and media, Every IAS officer retires with the maximum pension. Not even point eight percent of the young Armed Forces lad can ever dream of the joint secretary pension, leave aside the secretary. Why should any one join Armed Forces?
Majority of the law and order problems and insurgencies in the Country emante from inefficient management of land revenue, land records, fund management and district administration - closely protected turfs of the IAS. Abjact inefficeincy of Police (turf of IPS) adds fire to that. The Countries Political system ensures highest and 100 percent posts of Secretaries to them so that they could keep creating problems to be solved by the Politicians and the Armed Forces. What a wonderful system of reward and punishment ! Who are the Political Mastrs in the Contry is self evident.
Just look at the effieincy or deliberate inefficiency of the IAS Babudom. The report rotted safely hidden within well guarded IAS controlled vaults inside labyrinthine mazes under their ministries and Cabinet Secretariat. It took five years for the report to be approved. When a young IPS lad like Abhinav - a Bihar Cadre IPS officer, wrote an article exposing IAS machanism in the 6th CPC, the DOPT made an exception to single him out and punish him. Now is the turn of the three Services Chiefs. The IAS sprang a coup by inclusion in CPC report of the assertion that they are uncomparable and have highest responsibilty. That amounts to amaending the Constitution of Inda. How have Politician accepted it.
Whoes Country is this ??? Any Answer, please.
All friends in Arm.
The urgency shown in clearing AVSCII smacks of a design to underplay our genuine demands and to shift the focus.
Request keep up the fight in a judicious manner by venting out your feelings on all possible forums.They should not get a feeler that they are succeeding in their design.
Comments are drying up.Complacency setting in.Take off time to express your feelings and be proactive.The message has to be loud and clear that nothing less than our due is going to pacify the Forces.
Show solidarity at this critical moment and do not get waylaid by these frills thrown at you.
Hai all ! From the news item appearing in Hindi Daily Amar Ujala dated 04 Oct 08 it appears that UPA Govt is doing nothing for the ex servicemen(ESM) pensioners. Indian Ex servicemen’s Organisation led by Gen Raj Kadian (Retd) has now issued a statement that if our long pending demand of One Rank One Pension is not accepted then their organization will start relay fast in a rally in Delhi from 20 Oct 2008.
I think is it time that we all ESMs sitting idle all over the country should also show solidarity with them and organize some kind of protest/demo on that particular day 20th Oct, to put pressure on the govt. Rallies and protest all over the country, may be at Distict / Tehsil/ Taluka/ Block level will be good enough for the time being in the first phase. So, oldies! Are we ready?
all doctors in civil has been placed in PB-4 with Grade Pay of
10,000 with 20 yrs of service. why
can't this be implemented to our AMC officers who are perhaps most educated lot in our Armed Forces, undoubtedly! lets get over with our differences & let few of us if not allt their due ge
Must read this.....
This is the only Long term solution:
[{http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/military-being-urged-to-vote/}
sIR
CAN YOU PLEASE UPDATE US ON FINEPRINTS OF APPROVED AVSCii REPORT
Originally it was proposed a timescale promotion to rank of COL in 22 and BRIGADIER in 26 yrs
so that everyone earns atleast pension of BRIGADIER as the case is with BABUS
The central issue is not about SAG. It is all about parity of Lt Col with DS. Officers were being paid equal to or little higher than pay of their equivalent civilian officer's next higher rank to compensate for service hardships, risks etc. Therefore their rank parity remained with their eqv civilian officers (i.e. Col=Dir), their pay parity was with next higher rank of civilian counterpart. In case of LtCol, the diff of pay between two adject rank i.e. DS and Dir is so huge that the incremental benefits incl MSP is not enough to bridge it. Earlier the diff of pay of these two ranks were bridged by incremental benefits incl MSP eqv components. The diff of pay in all other adjacent level is bridged effectively by MSP and other benefits. Therefore the problem at this level only. Therefore the problem was to correct this diff in these two adjacent levels and it was for everybody at these levels and not only forces. Therefore the demand as projected as degradation was wrong.
It is clear there is nothing wrong as far as parity is concerned. The problem is mainly about huge pay difference between PB3 and PB4 which has created the anomaly.
Sir
you can log on to any Service Hq SITE LIKE WWW.IAF.NIC.IN
OR INTRANET OF ANY SERVICE
Dear fauzis
Brig is somewhat equ to Dir. Dir is a selection post and Lt Col/equ is non-selection. It is childish to compare both. At the most Lt Col can be compared with Dy Dir in Civil service. Be happy u have got much more than u deserve
An Open Letter to Mr Sekhar Gupta, Editor Express group (emailed to him also)
Dear Sir,
Your and Sisir Gupta's (I do Not Know if he is the same Amit Sisir Gupta, my class mate) pieces appearing in the Indian Express as also in Financial Express have fallen below a standard.
Press is undoubtedly a very important "Instrument of Exercise of Political Control" and I would not even hesitate to say that it has emerged as the guardian of our faith in the political system and for exercise of Political control as a separate democratic Institution. No denying that. And hence, you have all the freedom to write positively and negatively about any thing that is of vital concern for our "Political system" including on service matters on reported refusal of the three Chiefs to implement orders of sixth CPC.
My worry and contention is that the very basic concepts you are working on and are spreading through your Papers is wrong. Before highlighting the "Chain of Command", you should highlight the Chain of "Political Control Over the Command". The Chain of Political Control starts with the people, who are higher then the constitution. Then comes down to the Constitutional authorities such as the Parliament and all other Institutions that are responsible to the Parliament including Financial / Audit Institutions. and the responsible Press such as yours.
A political system develops its own "Instruments of Political Control" over the executive and all its agencies. Press/ Media, of course, are one of them or being part of the People and moulders of their opinions, have higher place than thought of at times and by many. I fully respect that. Political Control as it usually implies control of the people and peoples representatives over the executive who enjoys the power of Leviathan and has to be accountable.
On the other side The Executive has various instruments of Control over its functionaries including what is called "Bureaucratic Control". That is essential and a functional necessity where such large and varied organizations exist. However, it does not construe the same and to mean "Political Control". Calling Bureaucratic Control as Political is "Political Blasphemy".
The Armed Forces of India function under their Supreme commander , the President of India which means under the executive, finally meaning the Defence Minister. In order to control the Armed fores the Prime Minister and the Defence Minister have their Bureaucracy called Cabinet and Defence Secretaries. Then they have Three Services Chiefs who are the Primary agencies for execution of the task or missions.. The civilian Bureaucracy are coordinator but the Main Bearuacracy are the three Srvices Chiefs. They justify the existence of that ministry and not the other way round. They are as good or as bad constitutional authorities as Cabinet Secretary.
In the interplay of the Executive Masters (Cabinet) and their various bureaucracies, if difference have arisen, it is for the Executive to sort it out as the origin of the differences are those who are supposed to have ensured coordination. If it has not been ensured tha fault lies with them. How are you terming such departmental things and justified actions at par with Mutiny?
Are you sure and convinced that you are exercising Political Control for and on behalf of the people and Not being an instrument of the Political Control of Bureaucracy which morally does not seem to be your prime responsibilty.
They are not the Political Masters. Mr Gupta, it is acknowledged you are one being a citizen and Editor of a prestigious Paper. Kindly exercise it with the responsibilities and serious maturity it deserves. You are rightly pointing at the consequences for the three services without understanding and highlighting the consequences for our Country and Political Society. what about the "Present state of Affirs" . Please ask for those heads to roll who have subverted the "Executive control" for thier personal benefits and have even tried to suvert the Constitution in declaring themselves "supreme" service as written in 6th CPC Report.
I need not remind you Henry Truman and Douglas MacArthur story to keep in mind before putting serious allegations of the Sservices Chiefs and to define what is political control.
Kindly see this link also. This is what is called instituting and empowering the Instruments of "Political Control" , the vision which you seriously lack and can not even dream to write about. It seems such a well read man as you are deliberately misleading the people. Read this, please:
{http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/10/03/military-being-urged-to-vote/}
Thanks and Regards.
Wishing you good Journalistic pleasures.
@annonymous 8.35 pm...
Ha Ha Ha....Good Joke....
Get something better next time
Deepak
@annonymous.. 9.10pm
Nicely written letter.. it shudn't go waste.. try sending thru e mail to times or DNA or any other reputed newspaper so that it gets noticed.. Indian Express wont even publish it..
Deepak
Let us stop subscribing to the Indian Express. As CO I have done it my unit.
Second, lets us concentrate on the Hindi and regional language media. That's what our genuine supporters read.
Third, what preparations are required to take over the administration or governance of the country.
Very well written open letter to Editor Indian Express , Mr Gupta Mr Gupta. I think it applies to the Editor of Tribune also who had also made the folly of questioning the discipline of Service Chiefs.
You are dead right when you ay that standard of journalism has fallen. Editorials must be unbiased and project an honest and researched factually correct viewpoint.
The moral fibre of the babus is so weak that they are scared only of physical harm to thier persons - rest has been taken care by them - or so they think.
Let's kick these buggers - may be shoot some. Although they will make poor game compared to the LeT. Maybe their secretaries with 'Z' level may stack up to a challenge?
Really, since reading Srikrishna's report my heart and mind has gone in a tailspin. It is incredulous that these gentlemen are my countrymen. I feel as humiliated as some terrorists(became terrorists due to some humiliation somewhere sometime)I have killed. I now feel sorry for what I did. And the political class simply accepted it! What can you expect from a cabinet which is headed by a non grassroots leader and a "senior colleage" is a long time 'wheeler dealer' of the Congress who has hardly won an election in his career.
Anonymous 10.47 pm
"Third, what preparations are required to take over the administration or governance of the country."
This explains why strong civilian control is required to protect our democracy the worst form of which is also better than best of dictatorship
What do you do when the fellows paid to govern abdicate. What is this "civilian" going to control if it allows the the unaccountable babu to humiliate its own sword arm - the armed forces of the Nation? Let the people decide, now.
Anon 1120
It explains why the Chiefs have taken the stand they have? We must have faith in their sagacity and that of the few remaining honourable politicians to sort this out. If this country ever needed the soldier and statesman to toil together, no time was it greater than now. The babu will, true to nusiance, try his best to break lines of communication and do what he does best - provoke all. We musn't be provoked with impunity.
Dear Friends,
While I can understand your feeling am part of you all, we are officers of the Great Indian Armed Forces, the two factor which are foundations of our prsonality and culture.
Hence, we can not afford to utter any irresponsible word nor indulge in any irresponsible act which would provide reasons to the eagerly awaiting abus to prove what they want to and what they foxies have been doing throughout.
* The "fear of mutiny" and the "Fare of Politicians" have been their Bramhaatra to drive a wedge between the rmed Forces and the Politician.
* They have always ensured that there is No contact between Armed Forces and the our Political controllers.
* On their Part while the Armed Forces have always won and remained in the hearts and minds of the Contrymen, the typical Servies apathy towards Politicians has not been to the Services advantage. Nor the Country has benefitted out of that culture.
* The first and foremeost the Armed Fores must do is to ensure that all their members are registred as voters.
* Ensure that all Armed Forces memebrs Vote. Ask goverment to fecilitate that.
* As per electrol reforms for the Armed Forces and ask for counting of postal ballots as necessity. Now a days what happens is that postal votes are opened only if the difference between two candidates are marginal. Why so? The openion in Demcracy is exopressed through numbers and numbers say all.
* Armed Forces must ask for voting through internet ..that is e-vote. Our Constitutional authorities have accepted electronic means as a method of voting in the form of Electronic machines. All district HQs are connected through NIC network. Voting by soldiers through internet will not be a problems. Govt must provide sattalite links for voting to soldies in NE, Leh, Siachin and all remote places.
* Armed Forces must maintain contact with their ex servicement and be a part of their welfare through Ex Dervicemen Welfare Deptt in Mod.
* Armed forces must demand as functional necessity the presence of these IAS / IPS babus in all district HQ which have insurgencies in order to carry out political, developmental and Policing work. It should not be like what has been happening in J&K and NE. These Babus have all run away from there. Armed Forces must ensure these guys are there to face a few shots in their backs. Armed Forces should refuse to carry out one sided Conter Insurgency operations which do not succeed due to lack and absence of administration.
* Armed Forces must stress on Integration of Mod and Services HQ dwon upto section levels. There are No reason whatsoever why MOD bureaucracy can not be manned by Services Officers ans IAS officers be posted to Services HQs. Let us bridge the gap between two.
* It must be ensured that Civilian Bureaucracy interact at functional levels. Services Brass must ensure that this habit of "Ringing Up The Genrals" is abosolutely dicouraged. Let there be amicable and working culture rather than a culture of Babudom and "I am IAS".
* Under present demands on Services officers to run up to the ever changing technologies and to remain abreast, we should not neglect Genral Studies Current affairs, Writting capabilities and personality development. Let us train our officers that is the "Daimond" of our assets where as the soldiers is the "gold".
* Reamain truely embeded to the wishes aspirations and development of "soldier".
No Bureaucratic authority then can cut across this finest Institution of India.
Your political rights of Voting are not abridged but made very difficuly. Overcome those difficulties and emerge as true and political citizens of this Country. That is the is the cherished vision of the Constitution of India. Execsisng Voting right is the only way out for 1.8 million strong Army and 3.5 millions of their house hold people under the Democratic setup of our Country.
Jai Hind....
It’s the Honor of the Uniform
Letter to the editor of the Indian Express
Lt Col Gautam Jha
5th October 2008
Dear Mr. Shekhar Gupta,
While your reluctant apology was at best confusing, your tom-tomming the “soldier’s paper” surely cut a sorry figure. I wish that along the details of generous donations your employees have made in memoriam of the fallen, you may have informed the reader of the sons and daughters of IE employees who have joined the Nation's Armed Forces. Anyway, I write to you assuming that you still believe you are a "soldier’s paper". I must admit that I am a diehard fan of the genre of reporting that your paper always stands for.
I am sure the Chiefs understood the import of the option of refusing a cabinet decision before exercising that option including the permanent damage to the forces, unprecedented as it was. Actually, I believe they were indeed thinking of the future when they took the decision! Your analysis of the consequences of not stirring the political executive, I am afraid, was less than enthusiastic if at all.
I also believe the Chiefs’ protest is purely for equivalence and status. Money is something most are ashamed to even suggest let alone protest since bargaining is still considered ‘un-officer like’. Status on the other hand is something for which they may probably do more than merely mildly protest. There are valid reasons for this seemingly peculiar and ‘undisciplined’ behavior.
I will try to explain the centrality of the idea of izzat – that the english word ‘honor approximates. To help me in this endeavour, you may like to imagine having been asked to lead your employees to their probable deaths. I believe the talk of ‘merely a point of order’ in ‘It’s the uniform’ must not be trivialized. And while I have no intention of sounding alarmist, I recount an old episode to try to explain the bottom line of professional soldiering.
Towards the end of the ‘65 stalemate in the Lahore Sector, a correspondent happened to ask the Commanding Officer (CO) of 3 JAT, a unit which had just got the better of a Pakistani battalion in a bloody battle (3 JAT lost 5 officers and 90 men on the night of 21/22 Sep while the Pak battalion lost about 300 dead and rest captured including their CO), as to what made the men fight such a gruesome battle? The correspondent, eagerly, without waiting for an answer hastily added that it must have been the love of their country. Lt Col Desmond Hayde, the CO, pointing to his No 2, said, “You see Major Shekhawat? He fights because he holds nothing dearer than the respect and standing he enjoys in the eyes of his men, family, and community back home. His fear of losing that standing overcomes his fear of death. The men, of course, fight because Major Shekhawat fights.”
The idea, at the core, is therefore rather simple. You place the leader at such a pedestal that losing that place is all that he fears. The followers follow because they see the “highly placed fellow” fighting fearlessly (seemingly, at least).
Now, if you belittle his protests of his degradation of status (and worse - tell him that he is getting paid more than he deserves, worse still - egg him on that he has lost discipline and honour for having the temerity to even protest his degradation, worst of all – deny him any channel and means to protest) than you are in effect directly and surely denuding the fighting capability of the nation’s Armed Forces. There is no dearth of lecherous (and stronger than India) countries in the dog eat dog world.
Mr. Gupta, I implore you do two things.
1. Read the Chetwode Motto carefully.
"The safety, honour and welfare of your country come first, always and every time.
The honour, welfare and comfort of the men you command come next.
Your own ease, comfort and safety come last, Always and every time."
Note that the honour of the men comes next to the Nation itself and within the priorities of the men, honour comes before welfare or comfort. Note that the honour of the Gentlemen Cadet being commissioned doesn’t figure anywhere in the motto. So where is the leader’s honour? The motto itself, of course! Is his honour divided between the Nation’s and that of his men? Who fights for his honour? I like to think that people like you, the Cabinet and the people of this country fight for the military leader’s honor.
2. Please read and asses for your self the import of what successive pay commissions have done to that honor? Can we expect some genuine research from a paper famous for it? Can we expect the IE to kick-off a genuine national debate instead of allowing lowly lobbyists to dangerously sensationalize the limited space in print and TV?
With best wishes and a Happy Diwali.
Gautam
Sear Mr Guptas of Indian Express,
Do not make a mockery of the system like this Fernadese episode. Last like it was poineer and Wison John. this time is bureacracy backgroud Gupta.
Do read this in the name of Cabinet Control:
[http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1607/16070170.htm]
I hope some sense prevails. Do not lead sensible people and leaders of this country like Pranab Mukherjee and Mr Antony into that big pit where Mr Fernadese Jumped into. The then Defence Secretary laughed his way out whereas Bhawat was sacked and Govt of Vajpai fell by one vote.
It is rediculious for the country to have been hostage to an IAS Babu's Kautilya Niti. Things are so dangerious.
Good wishes.
See the refrence of the link in the above massage :
{http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1607/16070170.htm]
Thanks
http://www.hinduonnet.com/fline/fl1607/16070170.htm
http:/www.hindunnet.com/
fline/fl1607/
16070170.htm
The scales of Army veesus civil in when India was a colony were as under.. Obviously in democracy as was done all over world including UK they have to better for civilians as far as table of precedence goes. Lt colscale in 23/25 years with pay maximum for doctors Rs 1600/-,Engineers Rs 1600/- vis a vis Rs 2250/- for ICS AND SE cale for IES Rs Rs 1750-2150. It was 90 years ago and still a fact that qualification for civil posts were higher than army. Can Navy chief take people through same UPSC as IAS/IPS/IES etc. Than yes they can ask same pay, otherwise they save average 4-5 years in entry. It will be in national interest if our Army brothers accept civil scale with same ACP as to civilians. And ask for difficult service pay equal to 50% of basic plus DA and forgo all the EXCLUSIVE perks. Th cost of perks is equal to 100% of pay and allowances. Who donot know that 75% of army ration is sold in market for jawans and for officers it is sufficient for family. Has any officer ever deposited his surplus ration back to government as per rule rather than making family members eat?
Look at the link....
http://www.indianexpress.com/news/Armed-Forces-will-get-their-pay-hike-before-Diwali--Govt/369514
@ ANNONY
THOUGH I HONESTLY DONOT FEEL LIKE RESPONDING TO U ..
AS I CAN FIRMLY CONCLUDE THAT U VE SEEN ARMY FROM A DISTANCE..BUT LET ME TELL U THAT CDS AND NDA EXAMS R CONDUCTED BY UPSC ONLY..AFTER THAT U UNDER GO 5 DAYS OF INTERVIEW AND ANOTHER 5-7 DAYS OF MEDICAL EXAMINATION..AFTER THAT 4 YRS OF RIGOURS PHYSICAL TRG..AND AFTER THAT ALSO COURSES LIKE COMMANDO , COUNTER INSURGENCY AND JUNGLE WARFARE,HIGH ALTITUDE WARFARE..LET ME TELL THESE IAS/IPS/IES WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TAKE ON THIS FOR EVEN A DAY..LET ME ADVICE U SOMETHING Y DONT U PEOPLE ADOPT THIS METHOD OF SELECTION AND TRAINGING THEN TALK..Y R U PUTTING HALF COCKED FACTS IF U DONT KNOW ..BETER BE QUITE..AS FAR AS RATION ETC IS CONCERNED THEN TELL THE POLICE OF THAT PLACE TO CATCH THE ARMYMEN SELLING RATION..AND IF THEY FAIL THEN DONT PUT BASELESS ALLEGATIONS AS IT IS NOT WISE..
FOR GOD SAKE IF U VE GOT A PROBLEM WITH ARMY THEN SPK OUT..
AS SUCH I FIRMLY BELIEVE THAT INDIA DOSENT NEED A LOYAL AND SINCERE ARMED FORCE ..ITS PEOPLE NEED TO BE RULED BY EXTERNAL FORCES..THAT IS WHAT U ALL DESERVE..
@ anonymous 5.57 pm
You are taking about the 'qualifications' my dear friend, but it took me 3-4 times reading, before understanding what you are trying to say. This is the kind of communication skills you 'greatly qualified' guys have.
Whoever you are and whatever organization you belong to, one thing is very sure. Whatever you have written speaks poorly of your character, upbringing and environment you live in. Taking support of blatant lies and half baked information to justify the falsely implicated upgradation, will not take you anywhere. You better get your facts correct before defaming esteemed organisation like Indian Armed Forces.
You are saying 'ask for difficult service pay equal to 50% of basic plus DA'. My dear friend, this 'cost' you are attaching for our lives (which we are groomed to sacrifice, when situation demands). And what language you mean minded people would ever understand?. We are not asking for 'money.. money ..money' and what we ask is 'parity.. parity…parity’. We are not asking 'to create parity' but to 'restore parity'. But seeing your 'qualifications', I don’t think we have any ‘chance’ to make you understand.
And you think that who comes through UPSC exams is something great. For your stupid information CDS (Combined Defence Services) Exam is a UPSC exam. I know scores of people who have flunked in NDA Exam, have merrily passed out in 'your UPSC' exams and have become a 'liability' to the state. By the way, selection in armed forces is 100 % merit. And we know that 50 % of yours are from 'reserved' categories. So please don’t talk of qualifications/'qualities' etc.
What 'exclusive parks' you are taking about? CSD and rations? For your stupid information CSD facilities are not only meant for armed forces, but for entire Defence ministry including DRDO, Ordinance factories etc. and all civilians working in these organizations. Tell me what 'Extra Perk' we have got?
Your Comments on 'rations' only tells about your frustration and this is what prompted me to 'adore' you in a language what I have used in No.2 para. We believe in 'values' which is nurtured at every level in our career, that differentiate us from you (I mean only civilian bureaucracy and none else). Any amount of lies will never be successful in damaging strong foundation in which our character was built (by our organs). You better be careful before making such remarks.
There are two ways, by which we can ‘prove’ one's superiority over others. First by elevating oneself over other and the second, by ‘pulling’ other down. And I know you have no scope for the first and you are trying to do the other, but unsuccessfully. Better luck next time.
An Open Letter to the Honorable Cabinet Secretary of Indian Union
Dear Cabinet Secretary Sir,
Please refer to this news item;
[http://www.indianexpress.com/news/armed-forces-will-get-their-pay-hike-before-diwali-govt/369514/]
It would be again an unfortunate day for the entire Country, the Society and for our Political System that an irrational and discriminatory administrative order will be issued by the Cabinet Secretary/ Defence Secretary in deference of the real advise / due to coerced consent of the Three Chiefs of the Armed Forces who equal your rank and status, just to assuage the egos and establish bureaucratic supremacy. The honorable Cabinet Secretary might say that the Political Bosses desired so. However, considering the circumstances and facts well known to all now, that would not be true.
This is neither in any Party's Political Interest nor is it in the interests of the Armed Forces of the nation. This stands to benefit only the IAS Unionism. The history may not judge it Kindly as it is a dent in the Honor, prestige and morale of the Armed Forces. I am sure that has larger value for our Country than the ego of a Bureaucrat.
The Cabinet Secretary also seems to be guilty of misquoting the CPC by saying that the CPC had finally recommended PB-3 for Lt Col. The CPC had recommended PB-3 for all officers of civil services of rank equivalent to Lt Col but the Cabinet Secretary in his final draft recommended PB-4 for all officer equivalent to Lt Col but for the the Lt Cols and equivalents in the Armed Forces. This act is fraudulent and I am sure the Cabinet was not apprised of this single deliberate omission before they approved the final recommendations.
If 68 percent of additional out lay has been assigned for defense forces, that is because of their sheer numbers (1.3 million). It does not prove any thing. By quoting these figures the discrimination heaped on Armed Forces does not stand justified.
Let me remind you that the establishment will spend more than Rs 80,000 average per month in maintaining one IAS officer as compared to a poor average Rs 35,000 per Armed Forces Officer even after PB-4 is granted to Lt Cols. That is the pay of a clerk in the Corporate world. Where is the comparison. IAS and Civil Bureaucracy have taken the major share of the cake even after grant of MSP.
The Country will continue to maintain Armed forces at below 2.5 percent of the GDP, lowest in the world even after granting PB-4 to Lt Cols. The past figures show that even if we reach growth rate of 9 percent, Armed Forces will continue to remain there only. Ours is the the lowest paid Armed Forces amongst the comparable countries in the world. IAS is the highest paid bureaucries in the world.
Pay given to the Armed Fores personnel is socially distributive all over the country and is not confined to only a few sections and regions, as may be the case with certain other Central Services including your cadre.
I have no option but to put this letter here as the responses using the same media you are using. I hope we have similar Liberties in our Country and I request you not to invoke Marshall Law to prosecute me.
I appeal to your good sense and wisdom in not letting down and demoralizing the Armed Forces of the Nation. At your state and stage of wisdom, you should have been ego less and thinking of nothing but National Interests, which does not appear to be so.
Your institution may remain or may not remain in history but Armed Forces of Indian Union are historical, proud, developing, progressive and as permanent an establishment as the Country.
They function under their Chiefs, The "Chain of Command" which will stand marginalized due to the act of issue of forced Notifications without settlements.Exploiting the "discipline" clause to induce a sense of slavery is against our basic constitutional norms and Human Rights. Will it be correct if more than 17000 Lt Cols and their families approach Human Rights Commission to seek stay on the forces Notifications without settlement. Mind you Sir, Judiciary is not under you.
That is no good wisdom.
Armed Forces are inseparable part of an identity called "India" which you are slighting in favor of "IAS Bureaucratic Control". I do not know if it is worth it and beneficial for the Country as also your institution. Disputes on pay and wages is a routine matter and no ground for scare mongering and such drastic actions exist.
May reconsider it, please.
Jai Hind.
Rajeev Pundit
My dear Friends,
i am at loss of words to have seen this.
I do not know what to say.
IAS has staged a Copup in the Country and threatening the Armed Forecs.
Read this;
[http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081013&fname=IAS+Officers+%28F%29&sid=1&pn=1]
the essence is :
Primus Inter Predators?
The IAS lobby has cornered for itself far more pay than the Union cabinet cleared
Smash & Grab
The Union cabinet had cleared two additional increments for IAS officers, but bureaucrats gave themselves four
Even the two additional increments cleared by the cabinet were meant only for a limited period. But the IAS lobby has manipulated to see that this incremental edge over others stays throughout service period.
The additional fiscal burden for these increments not sanctioned by the cabinet is Rs 12 crore a year
New notifications scripted by the babus have ensured that junior IAS officers will draw more than their seniors in other services
Those in other services who were drawing the same pay as their IAS counterparts will now get less
The cabinet mandated that the IAS has an edge over other services at only 3 middle levels, with 2 additional increments. But the new notification means that IAS officers get 4 additional increments, which continue throughout their career.
Who is supreme, the Union cabinet or the bureaucrat? There was never the need to raise this question. But the flurry of notifications from babus of the department of personnel and training after the Sixth Pay Commission's recommendations were approved by the cabinet on August 14 makes one wonder whether bureaucrats—IAS officers—have overriding powers. Documents accessed by Outlook show that the cabinet approved a certain pay structure, but it was subverted by the IAS lobby for salary gains.
At a conservative estimate, this manipulation entails an additional annual burden of Rs 12 crore on the exchequer, not taking into account the proportionate gains the IAS lobby has allowed the IFS, or foreign service. Besides, in terms of arrears, 4,000 IAS officers will end up being paid Rs 32 crore. All this is money that wasn't authorised by the cabinet in the first place. Here's how the interpretations and manipulations took place:
On August 14, the cabinet okayed two additional increments for the IAS in the fifth year of service. This would put them ahead of other streams vis-a-vis salary till the completion of sixteen years, after which there is pay parity across all services.
However, while interpreting the new pay band system, the IAS lobby slipped in an additional two increments in the tenth year as well.
The bureaucrats have also ensured that the pay edge they have got over others remains till they retire. There will be no cutoff after the 16th year in service.
These machinations haven't gone down well with the other services. They have already shot off strong letters to the cabinet secretary and have also taken up the matter with senior members of the cabinet. "This malafide manipulation raises a basic question about who is supreme in the government—is it the Union cabinet or the IAS? The fact that this has been done shows that even the cabinet has no sanctity when it comes to the self-interest of a particular lobby in government," a senior police officer told Outlook.
State associations of IPS and Indian Forest Service (IFS) officers have sent in strong protests and representations, demanding not only a reversion to the original intent of the cabinet but also action against the officials responsible for "misinterpreting a cabinet decision."
In response to a fax to the Union finance ministry, an official associated with the pay commission told Outlook that the intention of the cabinet was to continue with the advantage for the IAS and IFS at three levels.
"This was discussed at several meetings and has the sanction of the government," the official insisted, and pointed out that "members from the other services, including the IPS and the IFS, were present, they were fully aware of the implications, and gave their stamp of approval." However, the meetings took place on July 2, much before the issue came up before the cabinet.
Besides awarding themselves additional increments, the bureaucrats have also arbitrarily awarded themselves a higher salary structure than what was recommended through several arbitrary means. While the commission recommended Rs 9,000 as grade pay for joint secretary level officers, it has been increased straightaway to Rs 10,000.
The justification runs thus: an IAS officer of the director rank is equivalent to a colonel in the army or an SP in the police. The next step up the ladder makes a bureaucrat a joint secretary, equivalent to a major general or inspector general of police. However, police officers and those in the army and other defence services have to pass through one more rung—the brigadier-DIG level —before they are on par with a joint secretary. The commission's increment for DIG-level officers meant a grade pay of Rs 8,400—just Rs 100 more than an IAS director. The former protested and the grade salary was raised to Rs 8,900. This upset the joint secretaries, as their grade pay was Rs 9,000. The IAS lobby promptly raised it to Rs 10,000.
The cabinet mandated that the IAS has an edge over other services at only 3 middle levels, with 2 additional increments. But the new notification means that IAS officers get 4 additional increments, which continue throughout their career.
The manipulation of recommended pay structures doesn't end here. In a bizarre move, the slew of new pay notifications have also ensured that junior IAS officers get more money than their seniors in other services. For instance, a junior IAS officer drawing Rs 16,300 in the old pay structure will now get a gross of Rs 40,890 under the new scheme. But officers from other services, who were his seniors and were drawing a higher pay packet of Rs 16,400, will now get Rs 39,690.
The other services have also been crying foul at the way grade pays have been fixed for them, while keeping the IAS at an advantage. In representations to the Centre, other service associations have pointed out that their increments have been proportionately much lower than that of their IAS counterparts. While increments for other ranks have been higher, for the DIG/brigadier level the ratio has been kept at a measly 0.14. This has led to IAS officers at a lower level drawing more than DIGs and brigadiers.
Similarly, an IAS officer drawing Rs 15,100 today will now get Rs 39,690. But his counterpart in the other services, drawing the same salary, will now, inexplicably, get Rs 38,500. "It is not just about money," a police officer says. "Pay structure also decides seniority, perks and powers. By ensuring the superiority of one service at the cost of all other services, you are ensuring bad governance. This will mean that other services will remain subservient to the wishes of the IAS. Is that desirable in our framework of good governance or in view of the efforts that Prime Minister Manmohan Singh is making to bring about more professional delivery of governance in India?" he asks.
In the end, even as bureaucrats bestow increments and sops on themselves, can citizens expect better governance? All government employees associations have rejected a key recommendation made by the commission: to link twenty per cent of annual increment to performance.So, while the exchequer is drained at the expense of the common man, the babu has ensured that he will continue to reap benefits—even as he shortchanges the government he is supposed to serve.
This devastating...
Remove Chandrasekhar...reconvene the CPC these guys are deadly enemeies of the Nation...
Armed Forces Chiefs do not Chicken Out...Oh we need to find a palce for ourselves ...Oh my God...these Guys are enemeies of our established Constitution..our values and our political sytem...they need drastic Political treatment...
Do not be under any flase impression..let it be once for all...they are enamies of all of us..the Nation....
Dear All:
Extracts are from:
[http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081013&fname=IAS+Officers+%28F%29&sid=1&pn=1]
No recommendation from This CPC need to be accepted what ever it may be....
Thanks
Dear sir,
It seems as if Cabinet Secretary is doing a favour by announcing so called Enhanced Pay. While claiming to be superior cadre these IAS officers are so deeply embedded in corrupt practices that they don't mind undermining the morale of armed forces which actually define the political existance of a country. These IAS cadres are Very Superior indeed as nobody can match them in Embezzling Govt Funds. Crores of Rupees allotted for flood control measures in Bihar were never spent but eaten up by these self styled Most Honest IAS Bureaucrats. Such cases are not exceptions but have become a rule all over the country. For such great disservice to nation they do not deserve pay at all. Equating IAS with Defence is an abuse to the nation. Nation can run without them but cannot survive without Defence. Every civilian govt official gets all the facilities except CSD & Rations. Cabinet Secretary should share details of children of IAS and IPS officers in Defence to substantiate their claim.
Politicians of this Country..
Die out of Shame...
Chandrasekahar has taken over this Country.....
It is Chandrasekhar who is the Pm and his IAs secretatries are Minsters...
Shame on all the Politicians...
You may accept it...But in our true democratic tradtions..Armed forces accept you as the leaders ...
Not Chadersekharan...
All memebers of Armed Forces...Our Politicians are the biosses not the IAs ....No way... Let it be very clear...
Yes I agree..
Scrap the 6th CPC rport ..
Mr Manmohan must have courage enough to admit...the Government has been cheated by IAS Babus..
They must accept it openly..There is nothing wrong in it....
It must be placed before the peopele of the country ...media already knows it..
Or Dr manmohan Sing you wil be decimated by people ...gain peoples confidence..sya these anti natioan; elements have destroyed the equillibrium...they are the biggest enemies of the Nation..
They are the biggest destroyers of all political institutions like Panchayati Raj..self goverance..Paradhan Samaj ..all so dear to our constitution so engrined in our basic political philosophy...
They have ensured that no money ever reached\s to people and they are the biggest beneficiaries..
What are you banking on Dr manmohan ..this is 21st Century...
Chandrasekhars Organisations is 18th century, colonial setup...
Cast it away sir...or people wil cast you away....
put a n experienced Revenure service oofrs as Dm...and see the results..
I wonder if NFSG is non functional why should it not be abolished... you cant get paid for being non functional ......
My dear Logic...
I suggets all to support your arguments ...but all Central services..IAS, IPS, Audit and Accounts, Revenue Services..MES in the Armed Forecs...military Estatae Officers..IT Deptt...
All are NON FUNCTIONAL
Otherwise why are MES buildings and works Non Functional...the worst in India...why is there law and oreder problems...Insurgencies ...non implementation of Goverment Policies and Programmes...death of Panchayati Raj....death pf all local bodies...
Who mans all those....those are Non functional...
If you have a little shame stop drawing the pay...let your supervisory Job be given on Contract..
The only job that can be given on contract is the Defence of this Country..
and I assure you it is not NON -FUNVTIONAL....
You all guys are digging your graves...
Next time I am on the board to pass a building ..i will show you how functional I can be when slighted like this...
All guys in the Armed Forces wake up...
Ragards and best wishes...
ANONYMOUS@3;42 PM,
What are you doing,issuing threats?you are in that money eating service,are you not?Pass a building,my foot...Have no shame,you the epitome of corruption?MES MILITARY ENGINEERING SERVICE...IT HAS NOTHING MILITARY,KNOWS LITTLE BAOUT ENGINEERING AND DOES NO SERVICE.
Do your stuff,that's eating money and do it well.No one's stopping you..happy eating
@ annony..NEXT TIME I M A GFO...MES HAD IT...
@Guptaji and his paper "Indian Express" gets back in the same coin.(courtsy livefist)
Chief of Naval Staff Admiral Sureesh Mehta lashed out at The Indian Express today. Here's what he said when Times NOW's Srinjoy Chowdhry asked him about today's front page piece in the Express about the Defence Minister pulling him up:
"I don't like to react to The Indian Express. You can quote me. I think they are doing a lot of things which are unprofessional, quoting things which have not happened. Bringing out issues on which they have no substantiation at all."
TIGER IS ENDANGERED NOT EXTINCT YET.
Are u not part of MES, Are u not drawing Tech Graduation allowance , while attending parties and doing engg graduation at govt expenses, are u not drawing post graduation allowance while doing PG at govt expenses. Are u not craving for MES apptt. If it is not so , then why are u sticking to MES. Is it not that all superseded frustrated officers are posted in MES to make it more non functional. How many of u excelled technically in MES. Are u not denying the deserving respect to MES/BRO officers. U talk about equivalence, is it not true that in Sena Bhawan , Ministry of Defence your Brig gets orange color pass , which is for all class I officers up to the status of Principal Director, while Civilian Chief Engineers get Green Pass which is meant for Jt Secy level officers. Are U not subjecting a Civilian Chief Engineer in MES , BRO etc to report to junior Maj Gen , thus flouting all Govt Instructions.
Why not all your Brigs Throw their passes of Orange color , which are issued by a Colonel in Sena Bhawan , who knows all about your so called parity. Will u come out with your pay perks allowances of Lt Col working in Sena Bhawan and civilan Jt Dir. Please come out with details if u have a slightest sense of humiliation and truth left in u. Please come out . This is an open challenge, Refute and throw your orange color cards which is below the parity level u are asking for.
Is it not true that in Leh the gross irregularity in Diesel/ kerosene with big scam was probed by CBI, is it not true that ration/ winter clothing / packed food issued to Army Jawans in Leh found being sold in Leh Market. Is it not true that u hire porters to carry load of jawans in sensitive areas.
Are u not part of MES, Are u not drawing Tech Graduation allowance , while attending parties and doing engg graduation at govt expenses, are u not drawing post graduation allowance while doing PG at govt expenses, while your civilian counterparts after doing Graduation, post graduation on self expenses does not get a penny, theese allowances are above and in addition to many more other allowances, is it not the same wk same pay rule shall be applied in MES for Civilians and Army, is it not that a Civilian also get posted to inaccessible ,terrain, terrorist infested areas also without any allowances/ perks with no medical facilities at remote places, is it not true that while u are in hospital , it is called sick in quarters and treated as on official duty while civilian counterparts have to get the leave sanctioned.. Are u not craving for MES apptt. If it is not so , then why are u sticking to MES. Is it not that all superseded frustrated officers are posted in MES to make it more non functional. How many of u excelled technically in MES. Are u not denying the deserving respect to MES/BRO officers. U talk about equivalence, is it not true that in Sena Bhawan , Ministry of Defence your Brig gets orange color pass , which is for all class I officers up to the status of Principal Director, while Civilian Chief Engineers get Green Pass which is meant for Jt Secy level officers. Are U not subjecting a Civilian Chief Engineer in MES , BRO etc to report to junior Maj Gen , thus flouting all Govt Instructions.
Why not all your Brigs Throw their passes of Orange color , which are issued by a Colonel in Sena Bhawan , who knows all about your so called parity. Will u come out with your pay perks allowances of Lt Col working in Sena Bhawan and civilan Jt Dir. Please come out with details if u have a slightest sense of humiliation and truth left in u. Please come out . This is an open challenge, Refute and throw your orange color cards which is below the parity level u are asking for.
Is it not true that in Leh the gross irregularity in Diesel/ kerosene with big scam was probed by CBI, is it not true that ration/ winter clothing / packed food issued to Army Jawans in Leh found being sold in Leh Market. Is it not true that u hire porters to carry load of jawans in sensitive areas.
Fauj ki daru pee kar fauj ko nashihat de raha hai.Jyada chad gayi bachhu.. ab so ja.
MES tere baap ki to nahin hai.tum sab jao yahan se pwd,cpwd ka kam dekho.Fauj ko tumhare jaise choron ki jarurat nahin hai.
@anonymous at 10:08 pm. i am not from mes, im not drawing tech allowance either, but i only want to tell you one thing. i know a close friend whose grand father told his father, pl. dont join MES khandaan ki izzat dub jayegi, log bolenge , chor hai. his father said the same thing to him when he was to make a career choice. i dont mean to offend anyone, but this is the public perception. if you are one of those honest ones, pl. do something and discourage your colleagues from indulging in corruption. its an open secret and needs no elaboration. yes people would like MES appt. because after giving so many years in operational/field tenures who would not want to relax and have some stability. in any case MES runs because of service officers on deputation, otherwise haal dekho, aapko khud sharm aayegi. every unit that i have seen has progressed in works only when we have service offrs as GE, else it literally goes to dogs. probably your 100% efficiency, measures only upto 30% on our scale. im sure you must be aware that navy refused contract for construction of married accn thru MES, abt which there was a lot of hue and cry. its wake up time my dear friend, else you'll become extinct in times to come.
@annony 10.47pm.. isko kahte hain sulag rahee hai, dhuan bhee nikal raha hai aur badboo bhee aa rahe hai... ha ha ha
@ annony...
porters r meant to carry loads..incl that of jawan as jawans carry wpns and ammunition.to fight in sensitive area.whar ever happened in leh is being investigated and people r being punished..see thelka army punished its people but who else was punished..from civil..as far as MES AND BRO is concerned ..i can bet u r from BRO and not MES.friend how many BRO people have been punished for selling fuel ...what about that fixed percentage 2% to 15%..which comes with every contract signed .no mov sanctions for vehicles r taken as .i ve seen all this as a doctor with bro..earlier bro used to ve pioneers to do the hard job in field ..now they act only as contractors..y should they be given ration...ar par to army..the chief engineer signs the certificate that they r deployed ahead or along with army on border to draw ration...even when it is not true..see the record of offrs in pers branch and u will find everyone is veing a vigilance case against him..i can write pages of my exp with bro...but it is of no good use...
Dear anonymous
I did not understand what u wanted to say .....please come again... i THINK THE non functional appointments are responsible for non implementation of the govt pro grammes leading to insurgencies, and various problems faced by the country .... this all is because of people who r paid despite being non functional.... I personally think u should consider change in name .... may be that shall motivate u .... please tell which board u want to on.... i shall help u to hang there ....
LT. TO MAJ.GEN IN PB4 CLOSE THE ISSUE AT EARLIEST.
DO YOU KNOW.
The std accepted unit of corruption in BRO is Kahlon(abbreviated as Kh).Unit has been adopted to felicitate the most corrupt creature on this earth.
Corruption is graded on a scale of 1 to 10Kh.
MORE TO COME ON THIS "DO YOU KNOW" SERIES.WATCH THIS SPACE.
Dear Friends,
It is a record of sorts that highest Number of Corruption Cases and Vigillance is against personnel of MNS, MES, BRO and then Ordanance. That is the order of discipline case.
One can file an RTI and the facts can be asertained.
These are the biggest anti estblishement agents within the Armed Forces. Bro in perticular, which is headed by an IAS officer of Jint secreatry rank is the Gangotri of Corruption in the name of development of Border areas. They are suckers of the highest order who deny the local polulation the work through denial of Contracts. These agencies are eat up all money which otherwise should have gone to the Local PWD Departments for construction of Raods. Locally also they are hated by all the reas they work in as they sell everything there, aggregate to cement to diesal to iron rods and even themselves.
A deputation duty of Army GD Clerk there fetches about 10 lakh in three years. That is the amount, these so called antinal developers are looting from the Coutry. Tel me a single are in the Country where NTPC, Jay Prakash Constructions and L&T are not prepared to go and undertake contacts.
Why are we then having these IAS headed pests in the sevices.
In the NE, These pests become anti national elements and even pay commission to the banned militant and anti national organisations like Naga rebels and terrorist to buy out their Security. Their Vehicles and resorces are used by the terrorist to mount ambushes on tha Army..
..Need proofs....???
If these guys do not shut up many more skeltons will role out of the known places.
Look at the Satans preachinhg Holy Koran.
Regards.
So what the Babus will get back. If they really want to have it out we can easily oblige. With or without gloves? Come on, we are are the Kashmir generation, commissioned in late 80's, we are as it is doomed to go to hell after killing so many sodding terrorists. Knocking off a few real well paid 'jihadis' in the South and North Blocks may just prompt Peter to reduce our time in hell.
why are u blaming Jt Secy for BRO for all the wrongs. BRO is headed by a Lt Gen Rank Officer called DG BR who is much senior than the Jt Secy. BRO is fully controlled by Army officers, Then for all the corruption do u think that civilians are to be blamed. Having full control of BRO in Army , for all good wk u take credit and then corruption is to be blamed to non existent civilians.
Please reply specifically , is it not that even after Gazette notification of equivalence in BRO U ( Army) is not complying Govt Orders, It it not the same Gazette says that till the time sufficient Maj Gen are available , the post of Chief Engineer which is tenable by civilian Chief Engineer eq to Maj Gen is tio be manned by Brigs. Why Army is so much defiant to democracy. If u are not comfortable answering specific question then better say sorry as GENTLEMEN. Is it not true that in spite of clear evidences u do not allow a Civilian Chief Engineer who is under UNDER army act to use two stars on his vehicles as per official notification. Is the gun power is so strong or u are so much high headed. I do'nt know how u cleared the Psyche test or they take only psyche people.
DO YOU KNOW 2.
Every GREF officer is competent to employ 20 casual lab and pocket his wages.
How?
They use all their 20 fingers to put as LTI on the muster rolls and pocket the money.
Innovation at its best.
50% of OC RCC, GEs posts in GREF and MES are held by army officers.Larger percentage of maintenence divisions are being handled by them.It will be better for the bloggers to have some decency in writing. In INDIA everyone is Indian.
I do not understand why are all these civilans after stars ....
Police has replicated those blatenly and without proper authorities...Nw the GE of Major rank or Sptt Ehgr of Brig rak also wnats star....
Well you all guys are in the defence Forces to asist not command. If you want command and flags and star, please Jion Armed Forces....
And my dear "fity percent", those fifty percent are more dangerious when afflicted with MES and BRO viruses....they want nothing less than fifty percent....
Ha..ha..ha....
Corruption of any type even in the Army is not tolerable....that is why there are those fifty percent there...Not to take away fifty percent...
stars and flags r meant for army offrs who command troops and not for those who command casual labours...if i m given a chance i will not allow bro staff to even wear uniform..i saw a chief engr of bro who wore combat dress..and even proposed that they should be allowed to wear it officially....even police should not be allowed to use stars and flags..just see DIG WHO IS B/W LT COL AND COL MOVES AROUND WITH A FLAG AND STAR..WE DONT OBJECT TO IT..SOMEWHERE ARMY IS ALSO RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PRESENT STATE OF AFFAIRS....
as u have rightly said if civilians wants command and control they should join armed forces. I think u will appreciate that if u want to rule then join IAS and Civil Services. So keep aside your thoughts of ruling this country.
Still answers to pointed question remains unanswered prove my point of view , why u afraid of answering. Do'nt start abusing if u do'nt have answers face it.
The IAS does not rule this country. Parliament does. And one day, the IAS will have its pants taken off for having dared to try and usurp the politicos power. Already IAS officers are justifying their pay and perks by performing high level tasks like holding laloojis spittoon and fetching mayawatijis chappals. This is all the civil services are good for. What is all this faaltu ego. Civil Servants are just "naukars" for politicians after all.
Maj Generals were never treated at par with Addl Secy and Lt. Col. were never treated at par with Directors
The Public Enterprises Selection Board has been following the following criterion for selection to the Board level posts in the Central PSUs since 1991:
Schedule A posts: Additional Secretary and Lt.General & equivalents
Schedule B posts: Joint Secretary and Major Generals & equivalents
Schedule C posts: Director and Brigadiers & equivalents
Schedule D posts : Deputy Secretary and Lt. Colonel & equivalents.
Even Brigadiers of armed forces have been treated at par with Directors.
@ Navdeep
Extracts from a PSEB circular for the post of Director(Operations & Technical)
3. Eligibility:-
"(d) Government Officers
Provided that notwithstanding the qualifications and experience prescribed, officers of the level of Director in Government of India or on equivalent scale of pay or Brigadier in the Army or equivalent rank in Navy/Air Force, on the date of vacancy with adequate experience in the relevant field will be eligible for consideration on immediate absorption basis."
Another extract of circular for the post of Managing Director (Helicopter Complex), Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.:-
3. Eligibility:-
(d) Government Officers
Provided that notwithstanding the qualifications and experience prescribed, officers of the level of Joint Secretary in Govt. of India or on equivalent scale of pay or Major General in the Army or equivalent rank in Navy/Air Force, on the date of vacancy with adequate experience in the relevant field will be eligible for consideration on immediate absorption basis.""
PLEASE NOTE :- Joint Secretary in Govt. of India OR AN EQUIVALENT SCALE OF PAY or Major General in the Army or equivalent rank in Navy/Air Force. Nowhere does it talk about empannelment.
On a similar analogy do you think parity for officers in an acting, substantive, SL or timescale rank should be different vis-a-vis their civilian equivalents in centre ?
Therefore, please stop twisting and misinterpretation of facts and stop misleading the readers.
@ annony..
JUST TELL ME ONE THING HAVE U READ THE WARRANT OF PRECEDENCE (WOP)..THAT IS THE ULTIMATE DOCUMENT ...DONT QUOTE ADVERTISEMENTS..FOR GOD SAKE...GET A COPY OF WOP THEN TALK..REST ALL IS BULLSHIT ..AND TWISTING OF FACTS BY PEOPLE AS PER THEIR DESIRE..
IF U R CAPABLE OF COUNTERING WOP THEN SPK OUT... BACCHA...
anonymous 9.41 pm,
1. warrent of precedence bearing no. 33-Pres/79 dated 26 jul 1979 has been issued by President Sectt. Note -1 of Latest version amended till 13 oct 2007 ( available on this blog also ) is appended below:
" Note-1 : The order in this Table of Precedence is meant for State and Ceremonial occassions and has no application in the day-to-day business of Government."
as per this note this table of precedence is not meant for equivalence. For day to day functioning, equivalence between Armed Forces and civilians has been issued by tha govt for DRDO, AFHQ, BRO, DGQA, IDS, DAD etc.
As per these Lt. Col is equal to Deputy sectt level (maximum).
2. notwithstanding above, your attention is invited to Article 26 of this table of precedence as per which Jt Sec. & eqv officers are equal to Maj Gen or Equivlenet.
3. Please read the notifications properly before drawing any inference.
For all of those who are blogging without the knowledge of actual beginning of the warrant of precedence in India. Point to be noted is that while it was by No of years for Civil Officers, Military equivlence was by Rank .
Warrant of Precedence as it exists today owes its origins in the Royal Warrant by which by which Precedence was regulated in British India, dated 10th September 1850. Civil Servants (East India Company ) had been divided under the Queens Warrant, into six classes according to date and their standings. Following is the extract from page 60 & 70 of the book “ PEERAGE, BARONETAGE, AND KNIGHTAGE, GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND, FOR 1860, INCLUDING ALL THE TITLED CLASSES.” By Robert P Dod, Esq, Associate of King's College, London. Published by Whittaker and Co, Ave Maria Lane, MDCCCLX. Gilbert and Rivington, Printers, St Johns Square ; 1860 :--
Rule 29. Civilians of the 1st , i.e. of 35 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Maj Generals.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to seniority, which is computed amongst the civilians form the date of there entering the class to which they belong and amongst the military officers from the date of their commissions.
30.Civilians of the 2nd class i.e. of 20 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival, and Colonels.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
34.Civilians of the 3rd class , i.e. of 12 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Lt Col.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
35.Civilians of the 4th class , i.e. of 8 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Majors.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
36.Civilians of the 5th class , i.e. of 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Captains.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
37. Civilians of the 6th class , i.e. of under 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
dear Pawan,
1. it is saddening to note that indian armed forces want to stick to rules of british period despite the fact that these have been changed by Govt of indepandent India. Following facts are worth mentioning as lot of things have changedsince then :
(a) In british period indians were mostly at other than officers rank in armed forces.
(b) No ration was given to officers.
(c) When armed forces officers were coming to civil organisations like MES they were being paid at civil rate only.
(d) Lt Col used to be CO of regiment ( now Lt Col is doing company cdr job)
(e) Lt Col was a selection post and not time scale promotion without facing any promotion committee.
(f) India used to have numurous princely states which have been disbanded after indepandence.
(g)Latest table of precedence has been issued in 1979. It is surprising that after almost 29 years Armed forces are making hue and cry
2. officers serving in present era have joined forces fully knowing this precedence then why halla gulla now.
3. in any case table of precedence is for ceremonial purpose only and one should not read too much in it.
thanks
@anon 7:34 AM said
in any case table of precedence is for ceremonial purpose only and one should not read too much in it.
@anon 7:34 AM
i can understand you would not want to read too much into it. bcoz the likes of you dont figure in that, it doesnt suit your convinience. armed forces have raised this issue now, it was a mistake not to have raised it much earlier. but better late than never. this time you guys will get it back.
also for your info this WoP has been ratified by home ministry on 14 Aug 2007. want the ref. will give that too.
Don't get jittery or uncomfortable. It shows lack of maturity and understanding. The information was rendered for all people as matter of interest as it shows basis of that WOP as it was introduced officially by the British in India. Everybody knows that WOP has been changed many Times since then. What has actually changed for the worse is the attitude of civil servants who want more power, money and status even when they do not have enough experience in that post. IAS has not nly undermined the status of army, but also of other Civil Services departments by dishonouring the service experience. I once again quote my previous article :---
" For all of those who are blogging without the knowledge of actual beginning of the warrant of precedence in India. Point to be noted is that while it was by No of years for Civil Officers, Military equivlence was by Rank."
Qualification Matters. Dear Gentlemen may i recommend to you in your own interest that all Army officers must sit in CAT and publish their results on this blog next time. Secondly, every one of us has a close relative in Army, SO WILL YOU HAVE in civil employment. The issue of organised dishonesty in Army can not hooted down, i know it pinches. It is a fact though. Some time we close our eyes because it comforts us, not very long ago The Chief Justice of India said no to enquiry against a judge and see what is happening now. Army is away from public eye for long, this issue is minor in comparision to National interest it is serving. I am merely an Indian and i know that i am paying 25% of my salary towards your pay and allowances alongwith the police forces for the safety i am getting and you are getting ration for family free, away from inflation i suffer. Truth is always bitter for those who do not like it, i am sure you all understand the level of diffence in selection of CDS and IAS, building of UPSC I was not referring, the same exams i was reffering. The urge to collect maximum profit and misuse it on CSD sale is only too well known to this country. God bless you all dear officers.
@ annony..
we will sit in CAT EXAM AND PUBLISH our result...y dont u undergo army courses we will publish ur those results too..by the way..i m a post graduate..and that too with distinction...so relax dont live fools paradise.
@ annony...
defence people too pay taxes..u r doing no favour to us by paying taxes....
the ration is not for family it is for the soldier..
so gets ur fundas correct u might have cracked CAT ..THANK ARJUN SINGH FOR IT ..HE HAS DONE A GR8 JOB IN RECENT PAST..i m sure of that by reading ur post..
PLZ APPEAR IN ARMY SELECTION BOARD..IF U CLEAR IT THEN SPK OUT ELSE..KEEP QUITE..AS SILENCE IS ALWAYS GOLDEN
dear Pawan,
You have gone down upto 1850.
If you further go down the history then you will find that subedar was incharge of whole suba . Based on this you will say that today's distt magistrate is equal to Subedar.
Very intelligent twisting of facts just for getting extra money.
Table of precedence is for ceremonial purpose and not for equivalence. This fact can not be negated by putting n number of arguments.
@ annony..
subedar is equal to inspector of police ...
if u go to NSG ..U WILL get it right there..
and if i m not wrong inspector is responsible for a suba..meaning a part of district...
so there is nothing wrong in what u r saying...but yes if u ant to compare a DM WITH A SUBEDAR ..WE DONT HAVE ANY PROBLEMS...
source :shiv aroor blog....
On Tuesday evening, the Ministry of Defence formally denied the existence of a sensitive article from South Block that Headlines Today put on air the same afternoon -- an article honestly, violently and articulately full of hate for the bureaucracy, and packed with insider detail of just how the pay commission mess has been allowed to snowball into the crisis it is now. Denial apart (there's no way the Ministry could accept the existence of such an article -- that would be tantamount to admitting just how dangerous things have gotten), we stuck by our story and went on air with it again primetime at 9.30pm Tuesday night, double pep, through the night and the earlier half of today. The note, being called an "article" has been authored by senior serving officer(s). Well since the Ministry of Defence denies the existence of the article (in essence, a retort to Shekhar Gupta's column from October 4), and we stand by it, I thought I'd put it up here for anyone who cares to have a look at it. These are excerpts:
Setting Up of Committee of Secretaries (CoS). CoS was set up to look into and resolve the anomalies in the 6th CPC report, as highlighted by various Central Govt cadres.
Armed Forces Representative Not Included In Any Capacity. Verbal assurances were offered by the officials of the Def Ministry that the issues raised by the Armed Forces were well understood by them and will be pursued most honestly and diligently by the Def Secy (a member in the CoS). Hence, they justified non-inclusion of any Armed Forces Rep in the CoS, even in advisory or observer capacity.
Opaqueness in Deliberations of CoS. In absence of any communication from the CoS, the Chairman COSC formally sought that the findings and recommendation of the CoS be shared with the Armed Forces for them to attach their concurrence or observations, if any, prior to the same being submitted to the Cabinet for “Informed Decision Making”. No formal or Informal Response was received to this formal request.
Cabinet Decision : Ill Informed. The Cabinet could not be faulted in giving its approval to the recommendations of the CoS. They were fair in assuming that Armed Forces views would have been objectively presented and analysed as the Def Secy was on the panel of CoS.
Questionable Manner of Dissemination of Govt Notification of the CPC. The Govt Notification was made available to the Services HQ late on Friday (after 5.30 PM the office closing time in South Block). Further, only that portion of the notification was made available which pertained to the Armed Forces. This prevented the concerned Armed Forces officials to study the Govt Notfn at least until offices opened on Monday; and even then, unable to do any comparative analysis vis-à-vis provisions made for other Govt Services, they would not be in position to analyse the implications on parity/disparity issues for quite some time thereafter.
Major Discrepancies Noticed by Armed Forces in Govt Notfn. While being exposed to continued “informal pressure from the bureaucracy” to commence the implementation process, the Armed Forces, with ‘patient haste’ conducted a detailed study and analysis to find “four major discrepancies” in the Govt notfn. While, one of the core anomalies was the legacy of the original CPC report, the Armed Forces were surprised that the other three had been introduced surreptitiously by the CoS itself (please remember, the CoS was constituted to resolve anomalies and NOT create them).
Chairman COSC and Services Chiefs Meet RM. The RM, when presented the facts pertaining to the 4 Core Anomalies, was convinced of their logic and legitimacy and promised the Service Chiefs to take up the issue with the PM. He directed the officials in the MoD to communicate the same to the PMO, with his recommendations for early resolution.
The Bureaucratic Subversion. In absence of the RM, the MoD did not send any communication to the PMO as directed by the Minister. Instead, it sent a note for consideration of the officials of the Fin Ministry. The note thus sent, diluted the Armed Forces’ case as was presented to the RM and with which the RM had already concurred. The officials of the Fin Ministry diluted the Armed Forces case even further and presented the same to the Fin Minister. The Note, thus rejecting most of the Armed Forces’ observations and proposals was to be dispatched to the PMO.
Service Chiefs Meet Finance Minister: Bureaucratic Subversion Partially Exposed. The Service Chiefs (at least the two of them) met the Fin Minister before the Note rejecting the Armed Forces’ case could be dispatched to the PMO. After detailed presentation of their case, the Fin Minister acknowledged that “officials in his Ministry had misled him and had also misrepresented facts”.
Bureaucratic Fiat Issued Separately to Three Services to Notify Govt Notfn on Pay Commission so as to Ensure Its Implementation wef 01 Oct 08. Three separate notes were issued separately directly to the three Services HQ (please remember, all communication on the subject between the MoD and the Services were with the Central Pay Commission Cell in the COSC and not directly with the Services HQ). Moreover, the notes were issued by the MoD in absence of the RM who still was away on foreign visit.
Service Chiefs Meet PM. The PM responded favorably to the Service Chiefs’ presentation of the core anomalies. He also stated that he had received favorable comments on the issues, from the Fin Minister but, the PMO could not proceed to take a view as it had not yet received any communication on the issue from the MoD. (Please remember again that the RM, before proceeding on visit abroad, had instructed his Ministry to send a formal communication to the PMO).
Service Chiefs Meet RM : Fears of Further Exposure of Bureaucratic Subversion. Service Chiefs apprised the RM of their meetings with the Fin Minister and the PM. They also apprised him of the fact that no communication had been sent by the MoD, as personally directed by him) to the PMO. The RM directed a letter drafted immediately, recommending all Armed Forces’ proposals. The same was dispatched, addressed to the PM and personally signed by the RM.
Services Chiefs Issue Communication to All Ranks. The nature of sudden and intense media campaign which had potential of subverting the morale and maybe discipline of personnel, issue communications to all ranks in respective services.
The following basic principles must be considered and informed view taken in the context of the issue being discussed:
Is Govt Authority synonymous with the Bureaucratic Authority? Is Subservience of the Military to the Civil Authority in a Democracy synonymous with Subservience of the Military to Bureaucratic Authority?
Each one in the Armed Forces have grown, since their initial induction, learning that in a Democracy, in the context of the Military’s Subservience to the Civil Authority, the Civil Authority signifies the “Elected Govt” and at the larger levels, the “Parliament” and the “Constitution of India”. On day-to-day functioning, the bureaucracy may represent the elected Govt but it surely does NOT replace elected Govt.
The bureaucracy misled the Cabinet into believing that their recommendations were based on fair consideration of the views and logic of the Armed Forces (if it was not so, the RM, FM and PM would not have been surprised and found merit in the issues raised by the Armed Forces subsequently).
The bureaucracy, knowing the schedule of foreign visits by the RM and PM, deliberately worked in a manner that would prevent exhaustive deliberations with the deadline of 01 Oct and thus pressurise (the pressure was brought through a section of the media, led by Indian Express and a print news agency) the Armed Forces to implement the Pay Commission in its current form and deferring the resolution of the core anomalies indefinitely. This is exactly what they achieved in the case of previous Pay Commission.
What is most disconcerting in the bureaucratic design that they resorted to “disobeying instructions of the RM”; and “Misleading the FM and Misrepresenting Facts Before Him”. The charge of “Defiance of Govt Authority” that is being labeled upon the Service Chiefs actually should be labeled upon the Bureaucracy.
As for the Service Chiefs withholding Notifying the Govt Order, it is a simple case of they being morally bound to apprise the Govt of their perception of anomalies and ill-effects of implementing its order, prior to blindly executing it. Once the Govt (represented by the RM and PM) found merit in reconsidering the aspects brought before it by the Armed Forces and assured the Service Chiefs of having a re-look, until it got back to the Services with fresh instructions, the Services cannot be blamed for ‘defiance’ or ‘disobedience’. Once the Govt did come back during the previous weekend with interim orders, the Services have accepted the same and are implementing.
As far as the communications issued by the three Services Chiefs to all ranks is concerned, one ought to read the complete documents and understand the context. There is nothing in them which can be distantly construed as ‘defiance of govt authority’. In fact, in all manuals on military leadership and of late, also included in teachings on HR by the corporates, one of the abiding principles is that of “keep men informed”. This is expressly meant for men not following prey to rumours, propaganda and misinformation as they can seriously subvert the morale, discipline and ultimately operational effectiveness of any organized group and especially, the Armed Forces.
Mr Shekhar Gupta’s contention of the Service Chiefs behaving as “Union Leaders” egged by cheering ex-Servicemen, is gross misrepresentation. The Armed Forces are denied right to form unions, firmly in the belief that the concerns of each individual are addressed by a strict chain of command. This chain leads to the Service Chiefs. The Service Chiefs are thus doing what they ought to do in a democratic setup and purely as per democratic norms which govern the interface between the Civil Govt leadership and its subordinate military leadership. Mr Shekhar Gupta has also attributed the Services Chiefs with “Open Defiance of Civil Authority”. Is he in know of or can he recollect any instance of any act or articulation by services Chiefs which any sensible person can construe as defiance of civil authority? He surely cannot. Further, the ex-Servicemen should, if at all, be complimented for expressing their concerns and grievances, not only in democratic fashion but in a “dignified democratic fashion”. He, through his column, could have actually asked other interest groups and individuals to emulate them.
The whole episode so far, has been a classic case of the bureaucracy “subverting the democratic functioning of the state”; “undermining ‘informed – thus wise’ decision making by the Elected Govt”; and “Subverting the Public Opinion by Using/Misusing the Media”.
The facts and their sequence as brought out may be verified by those willing and an objective opinion may only be made thereafter. The provisions of the RTI Act would surely help uncover the criminal collusion and lengths to which the officials in the concerned Ministries have gone to, to ensure misrepresentation of issues, misleading their own Ministers (and thus the Govt) with the ill-intent of depriving legitimate dues to the Armed Forces personnel and undermining their status.
The bureaucracy, especially those associated with the Defence Ministry, during the past six decades, have found themselves not only increasingly incompetent but even unwilling to develop related competencies, to fulfill their assigned roles. As this episode clearly shows, the bureaucracy have instead, attempted to usurp the role of the Ministers (& thus the Govt) by assigning most of the “decision making” to themselves in the growing belief that in all cases of Ministerial interventions, they can effectively misrepresent facts and mislead the busy Ministers and further, that their acts of commission and omission will never be open to scrutiny of the Armed Forces. In the instant case, the concerned bureaucrats had not bargained for the Service Chiefs walking up the political masters which led to exposing of their nefarious designs and professional gross misconduct.
It is anybody’s guess that the current media campaign is the handiwork of the same very bureaucrats in a last ditch effort to scuttle the “Informed Decision Making Process by the Appointed GoM” and to “Cover Bureaucratic Misdeeds & Follies” by raising the bogey of “Armed Forces’ Defiance of the Govt Authority”.
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