-
(Again may I request that the discussion may be kept civilized without abusive comments on any particular service. Difference of opinion and counter-logic is always welcome though. Thank You)
OK sorry for a long break, the circumstances were unavoidable :-)
Well Well, there you have it !. Some civil service officers have been maintaining that a Director to Govt of India is equivalent to a full Colonel and not a Lt Colonel. Superintending Engineers of the MES (Also known as Directors when holding staff appointments) who were in the 5th CPC scale of Rs 14300-18300 (Revised to Rs 37400-6700 with a Grade Pay of Rs 8700) have time and again represented to the Govt that they should not be made to work under Colonels. For the uninitiated, full Colonels write the CRs of Directors / Superintending Engineers when posted in certain headquarters. Further, the establishment instructions of MoD also till date clearly equate SEs with Lt Colonels. The grouse of civil Directors also emerges from the fact that Lt Colonels are designated as Joint Directors by the Army, not realizing that the Army designates Lt Colonels as Joint Directors merely for internal cadre management and it has nothing to do with their actual grades. Hence, it merely reflects their designation for a particular appointment and not their rank or grade. More on the tenability debate is available here.
Notwithstanding such representations by certain quarters against ‘undue subordination’ under Colonels of the Army, what has not been highlighted is the fact Directors / SEs of the MES have already approached the Central Administrative Tribunal (CAT) twice seeking directions that Directors are senior to Lt Colonels and also that Directors / SEs should not be placed under Colonels. The first Case (OA No 298 of 2006) was filed by the Indian Defence Service of Engineers Association against Ministry of Defence, UPSC, E-in-C of the Army besides three other respondents. In the said case it was represented by the Applicants that an SE was equivalent to a Brigadier of the Army (huh ??!!??) and that Colonels should not be allowed to initiate ACRs of Directors / SEs while on the other hand Directors / SEs should write the ACRs of Lt Colonels.
In an important and well rounded decision which was till date kept under wraps, the Hon’ble CAT (Chennai Bench) has held that there is no superior-subordinate relationship between a Civil Director and a Lt Colonel and a Lt Col does not report to a Director but only to a Colonel / Principal Director. The Hon’ble Tribunal has also held that the question of a Director writing the CR of a Lt Col does not arise and mere designation of a Lt Col as a Joint Director does not help the claim of MES officers. A similar decision has also been rendered by the Hon’ble CAT at Jodhpur.
The Respondents (MoD and others) in their reply before the CAT at Chennai contended that an SE could not compare his status with officers of the Armed Forces whose terms and conditions of service and rank structure were different and that one to one equation with civilians was not possible on the basis of pay scales. It was also stated by the Respondents that according to Govt of India, an SE was equivalent to a Lt Col and that a Colonel was senior to a Director/SE and had a higher charter of duties and greater responsibilities. The Ministry of Defence and other respondents also submitted before the Hon’ble CAT that the appointment of Lt Colonels and of Directors was equivalent.
In yet another similar case, the Hon’ble CAT at Jodhpur was also approached by an SE praying that the Ministry of Defence may be directed that Colonels should be restrained from writing the ACRs of SEs. Here also the MoD and other respondents submitted before the Hon’ble CAT that the said case had been filed under the misconception that an SE was equivalent to a Colonel. The MoD further submitted that a Colonel had always been superior to an SE and that a Colonel had rightly been granted the duties of writing ACRs of SEs. The MoD and other respondents also stated that the basic pay of a Colonel (Rs 17100-19350) was higher than that of an SE (Rs 14300-18300) and that the rank pay was a part of basic pay as per SAIs issued by the MoD. The Hon’ble CAT at Jodhpur too dismissed the claim of the Applicant SE finding no substance in it.
The issue has thus been well settled judicially by the Hon’ble CAT and it has also attained finality since no appeal has been filed against the above mentioned decisions according to information available to this blogger.
-
(Again may I request that the discussion may be kept civilized without abusive comments on any particular service. Difference of opinion and counter-logic is always welcome though. Thank You)
OK sorry for a long break, the circumstances were unavoidable :-)
Well Well, there you have it !. Some civil service officers have been maintaining that a Director to Govt of India is equivalent to a full Colonel and not a Lt Colonel. Superintending Engineers of the MES (Also known as Directors when holding staff appointments) who were in the 5th CPC scale of Rs 14300-18300 (Revised to Rs 37400-6700 with a Grade Pay of Rs 8700) have time and again represented to the Govt that they should not be made to work under Colonels. For the uninitiated, full Colonels write the CRs of Directors / Superintending Engineers when posted in certain headquarters. Further, the establishment instructions of MoD also till date clearly equate SEs with Lt Colonels. The grouse of civil Directors also emerges from the fact that Lt Colonels are designated as Joint Directors by the Army, not realizing that the Army designates Lt Colonels as Joint Directors merely for internal cadre management and it has nothing to do with their actual grades. Hence, it merely reflects their designation for a particular appointment and not their rank or grade. More on the tenability debate is available here.
Notwithstanding such representations by certain quarters against ‘undue subordination’ under Colonels of the Army, what has not been highlighted is the fact Directors / SEs of the MES have already approached the Central Administrative Tribunal (CAT) twice seeking directions that Directors are senior to Lt Colonels and also that Directors / SEs should not be placed under Colonels. The first Case (OA No 298 of 2006) was filed by the Indian Defence Service of Engineers Association against Ministry of Defence, UPSC, E-in-C of the Army besides three other respondents. In the said case it was represented by the Applicants that an SE was equivalent to a Brigadier of the Army (huh ??!!??) and that Colonels should not be allowed to initiate ACRs of Directors / SEs while on the other hand Directors / SEs should write the ACRs of Lt Colonels.
In an important and well rounded decision which was till date kept under wraps, the Hon’ble CAT (Chennai Bench) has held that there is no superior-subordinate relationship between a Civil Director and a Lt Colonel and a Lt Col does not report to a Director but only to a Colonel / Principal Director. The Hon’ble Tribunal has also held that the question of a Director writing the CR of a Lt Col does not arise and mere designation of a Lt Col as a Joint Director does not help the claim of MES officers. A similar decision has also been rendered by the Hon’ble CAT at Jodhpur.
The Respondents (MoD and others) in their reply before the CAT at Chennai contended that an SE could not compare his status with officers of the Armed Forces whose terms and conditions of service and rank structure were different and that one to one equation with civilians was not possible on the basis of pay scales. It was also stated by the Respondents that according to Govt of India, an SE was equivalent to a Lt Col and that a Colonel was senior to a Director/SE and had a higher charter of duties and greater responsibilities. The Ministry of Defence and other respondents also submitted before the Hon’ble CAT that the appointment of Lt Colonels and of Directors was equivalent.
In yet another similar case, the Hon’ble CAT at Jodhpur was also approached by an SE praying that the Ministry of Defence may be directed that Colonels should be restrained from writing the ACRs of SEs. Here also the MoD and other respondents submitted before the Hon’ble CAT that the said case had been filed under the misconception that an SE was equivalent to a Colonel. The MoD further submitted that a Colonel had always been superior to an SE and that a Colonel had rightly been granted the duties of writing ACRs of SEs. The MoD and other respondents also stated that the basic pay of a Colonel (Rs 17100-19350) was higher than that of an SE (Rs 14300-18300) and that the rank pay was a part of basic pay as per SAIs issued by the MoD. The Hon’ble CAT at Jodhpur too dismissed the claim of the Applicant SE finding no substance in it.
The issue has thus been well settled judicially by the Hon’ble CAT and it has also attained finality since no appeal has been filed against the above mentioned decisions according to information available to this blogger.
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51 comments:
Read this.
http://www.ndtv.com/convergence/ndtv/showcolumns.aspx?id=COLEN2008006
In defence of the military
Nitin Gokhale
Senior Editor, Defence and Strategic Affairs, NDTV
Tuesday, October,7 2008 (New Delhi)
Let me begin this piece by stating emphatically that it is written in defence of the Indian military.
I believe that it is an institution worth defending, warts and follies notwithstanding. And that is why this piece.
Of late, the Indian military leadership has come under a lot of motivated and ill-informed criticism for doing what any self-respecting commander-in-chief would do.
@Nikhil.
We are ready to lay down our lives just because of people like you.
We are sure,majority of countrymen think yourway.
Guptaji and likes are handfull and we don't care for what they perceive or say.
Thanks for support when we needed it most.
GOD BLESS.
dear Maj Navdeep,
Please don't blow up the issues siting wrong facts.
the Govt. vide Gazette Notification No.D.L.-33004/99 of 2007 had Notified the equivalence between army and civilian officers in case of Boarder Roads Organisation wherein Maj Gen has been equated with Chief Engineer , Colonel with (SE)Director and Lt Col with Joint Director. This was done after the state lost the case in favour of SE of BRO in CAT Guwahati.
Equivalence for MES is yet to be issued. Hence please do not issue equivalence at your own.
In your previous blogs someone has posted equivalence issued by govt in respect of DRDO, SURVEY OF INDIA, DGQA, IDS, AFHQ etc. and as per these orders LT. Col is equal to civilian officers of Dy Sec level .
It will be in interest of all please don't publish articles based on twisted facts.
thanks
A Long break, but I guess this break surely justifies itself. Kudos to Maj Navdeep for digging up that was kept under wraps by we can understand whom!!! I would also like to thank Maj Navdeep for enlightening souls like me who are not at all aware of labyrinthine processes of parity. Thanks Maj Navdeep, in these times of utter confusion in which every dog is having his day, you are surely helping in keeping the things saner and judicially clarified.
@Anonmymous 9.46 PM
My friend, please go through the said notification dated Feb 2007 concerning BRO again.
The notification only deals with powers to BRO officers relating to discip proceedings under the Army Act. It is restricted to functions under the Army Act and does not deal with equivalence. Please see Section 4 of the Army Act and things would be clear.
Moreover, the notification dated Feb 2007 has not yet been implemented by the MoD.
I'm not presenting twisted facts, merely what has been stated in the ju'ment has been placed on the blog. Tell me if the reported modalities are not in the ju'ment, I would gladly remove those parts.
DG BRO..
NEEDS TO SET THE FUNDAS OF BRO PEOPLE IN ORDER..
I KNOW THAT MY BUDDIES FROM ENGRS GENERALLY DONT RESPOND TO BRO STAFF AND BEHAVE LIKE BIG BROTHERS TO THEM..BUT NOW THE TIME HAS COME TO PUT THEM IN PLACE..GREF IS THERE FOR ARMY...IT WAS CREATED AFTER CERTAIN ARMY ENGRS BATTALIONS WERE DONE AWAY WITH ..THE WHOLE AIM OF GOVT WAS TO SAVE MONEY BY USING PEOPLE FROM DIFFERENT DEPT LIKE CPWD ETC TO COME IN AND DO SOME WORK FOR BORDER DEVELOPEMENT..BUT OVER A PERIOD A CADRE FOR GREF GOT CREATED AND THEN THEY STARTED COMPARING THEMSELVES WITH ARMY OFFICERS..FELLOW GREF PEOPLE DONT MIND BUT I M 100% CORRECT IN GIVING UR HISTORY..CAN U PLEASE TELL WHERE R U LISTED IN WARRANT OF PRECEDANCE(WOP)..THE COMPARISON U R TALKING ABOUT IS REARDING THE POWERS AS GIVEN TO BRO OFFICERS FOR EXCERSING ARMY ACT AND NOT FOR STATUS..SO PLEASE DONT GET CARRIED AWAY IN EMOTIONS..
@Maj navdeep,
Pl go through the judgement of Hon'ble Tribunal Jodhpur Br carefully before drawing your own conclusions.Judgement does not speak about equivalence at all .As per Judgement if an officer is working under the similar status or even junior officer in that case ACR of the officer will be written by the officer to whom he has reported during the Year inspite of being similar status or even senior to the officer writing the ACR
ab yeh acr ka judgement beech mein kahan se aa gaya
@Maj Navdeep quoting
"The MoD and other respondents also stated that the basic pay of a Colonel (Rs 17100-19350) was higher than that of an SE (Rs 14300-18300) and that the rank pay was a part of basic pay as per SAIs issued by the MoD"
Let me correct you
(a) MOD has all along maitained that rankpay will not be counted for determining status,pl read MOD's ID as below
MINISTRY OF DEFENCE
D(MS)
Subject : Status Equivalency between Service Officers and Scientist in DRDO
***
1. Reference minutes of the meeting held on 3-6-99 circulated vide MOD I.D. note No. 10417/RD/Pers-6/1115/D(MS)/99 dared 15-6-99
2. The matter with respect to status of Rank pay has since been resolved and it has been decided by the Government that the rank pay will be taken into account for determining the entitlement of the commissioned officers of the three services to financial benefits concessions etc including retirement benefits. However, the rank pay will not be taken into account for determining the status. Further action in the matter may be taken in accordingly.
Sd——
(A.K. Sethi)
Under Secretary (MS)
Chairman PPDC
FOR DRDO
Mod ID. No. 19(19)/99-D(MS), dated 4-5-2000
(b)As regards MOD's stand in quoted case at CAT Jodhpur let me correct you MOD in its ID on the subject has clearly brought that SE is equivalent to col.I will post the ID tomorrow.Therefore pl donot misquote MOD
(c)Maj Navddep quoting"I'm not presenting twisted facts, merely what has been stated in the ju'ment has been placed on the blog. Tell me if the reported modalities are not in the ju'ment, I would gladly remove those parts"
Pl read carefully the Clause 2 of MOD Govt of india Gazette Notification No.D.L.-33004/99 of 2007 Part I section 3 (Gazette notification bringing out the equivalence bet BRO offrs and Army offrs)is subjoined as below
"2. The inter -se - seniority between the colonels and superintendind Engineers9Functional Scale)will be with refrence to date of their assumption of charge as Superintending engineer (Functional scale) /the date of appointment as Colonel.The inter-se-seniority between other ranks at different levels will be decided similarly.
I hope u will be in agreement that gazette lays down equivalence only.
(d)For non implementation of the the Gazette Contempt Petition is pending at Hon'ble High court of Gauhati and decision is being delivered soon.
wish you all were not comparing with Army Officers...
You cannot understand what an armed officer is.
We are glad for Navdeep, We Salute you and wait with bated breath for our ldrship to decide the issues at the earliest.
If they fail...the world will nor come to an end...Well we hope but deep down there's that deep growl.
Thanks Navdeep.
My Dear Friends,
It has become so apparent and clear how MOD has been working overnight all days to downgrade the status of Armed Forces Officers and Cadre and passing orders to that effect on the drop of hat.
Under an envornment where the Mod officials including IAS are in a race against the Armed Forces Cadre for equivalance and status, their orders as MOD on the issue of equivalance are malafide and illegal. No one can pass orders involving himself.
I shall give an exapamle. The Director of Mod has changed his status fom Lt Col equivalance to Col equivalance and is inching forward to Brigadier now. He / MoD adjudicating on the issue of equivalance amounts to he deciding over his own or equivalant paid civilian issue. It can not be said to be legal order at all.
Hence All MoD IDs and orders deciding on the issue of who is junior and who is senior can not hold any ground in the eys of law.
Those are illegal orders and not liable to be followed.
It is a very strong case for the Services HQ to represent to the CAT / Supreme Court / GoM and ask them to restore the ststus / equivalance as per 1952 Warrant of Precedence. After 1952, these so called Adjuducators have been passing oders concerning on subject which interalai uplifted their own stataus and seniority. That is highly rediculious. That is muder of Natural Justice.
That is prima facie illegal. How can any effected Party pass a judgement on itself.
Some honorable member of Armed Forces should take up the case to CAT or still better to the Supreme Court and ask for restoration of status as per Wop of 1952 except for posts and appointment ceated post 1952.
How can IAS be the defendant, prosecutor and the Judges themselves.
I again say, That is a plain mockery of Natural Justice..The order of Mod stating that the Rank pay is not to be taken into account for deciding equivallance is a clear case of downgrading some cadre departmentally thereby enehancing the status of the cadre passing such an oder. How can they issue such an oder as it directly concerns them and inspite of the clear cut evidence that Rank pay was carved out of the basic pay and AI also ststing that Rank Pay is part of the Basic Pay.
Our Generals and system most of the times acts and behave like "Sleeping Dogs".How could that time AG and COPs even accept that lying down... Waht were they paid for???
I will request the three Chiefs not to take it lightly and take up a case for restoration of the status as existed at independence.
These guys are "Status Hungry" . The only people of Status they see are the "Armed Forces" and they get after Juping their Status. Since the Cabinet Secretary hold a n equal or beterr Status then the Services Chiefs, even a clerk in MOD thinks and behaves as if he is above the Chief.
Wake up...you have slept enough to be dethrowned
My Dear Friends,
Forward to the above post on the issue of Status and equivallance..
In order to Have an amicable solution Vis a Vis IAS Cadre, Following appraoch would be Jusitified.
An Average IAS enets the Service at the Age of 25 / 26 whereas an average NDA Cadet enters the service at an age of say 22 years.
The maximum levarage that can be allowed to the IAS cadre should therefor be of 4 yeras.
Say an IAS / IPS of 10 yeras of service, and an Armed Forces Officer of 13 years of service being the equivallance id fine and in order. Not an IAS of 14 years of service and a Col of 24 years of Service. That would be unjustifies and Not proper. A Col who has finished his Command tennure, might have done some stff after that or is posted in HQ as the director is not Comparable to that young forteen years of service up-start IAS who has become neo-rich having plundered some district previously. And now he is in the corrodors of the power. He touting himself equivalant to a Colonet is rediculious.
IAS could be given leavrage only of four yaers considering their late entry into first class Babudom from previously being in ignonimity.
Moreover, it must be recognised how drastically the nature of the people who Jion IAS has drastically changed over the years. Like us only, they are from middle to lower middle class background, have jumped the ques due to reservations, are not so qualified and experienced as copared to Armed Forces Officers and have the only qualification of having passed a mugged examination. he fabric of IAS has undergone socio economic changes.
It impleis that those who comprise IAS of the day are more power hungry , Status Hungry, Cast Conscious, Political and more mischievious, scheming and greedy than the previous respectable Babus. However todays lots would be more representaive than the previous ones.
These guys therefore need to be dealt considering the realities of the ground and then taken along.
They do require firm handling, Undoubtedly. However, there should be emphasis on more interaction than exists today to develop a working relation and culture. And Never ever devolop personal rapport to with them only for personal favours and subverting your own oraganisation.
Friends
in case of dispute no harm in going through the info on following link
http://www.whispersinthecorridors.net/
and read "Enough is enough"
Is it ok
All the best
Armed forces have tested the political cost of their hard earned goodwill and political establishment have also to respond taking into consideration the coming election. A win-win situation for both.
But what about the ways & means used now?
Is it going to be way in future also?
May we hope a sense will dawn on both devoid of their self-interest now?
@anon at 8 oct 08 8:38am
"enough is enough" Do you know the selection criteria for Defence Forces, when you are talking so for IAS. You don't! as can be made out from your views which shows shallowness of your knowledge about selection. Just because so many apply does mean any one can be selected. Even the Sainik Schools (so cxalled Nursery to Armed Forces)are unable to feed the requirement. As for coaching, you tried your level best, but you could never make it through written exam of NDA/CDS forget about SSB, Yet you could make it to Civilan Service. So what do know of selection procedure. Your knowledge about equivalency again shows your frustration rather than any logic. 'You can not have your cake and eat it too", One proverb rightly said, but used in wrong context. that is what tHE sO cALLED eLITE ias has done taking two increment at every promotion which is sure short. So Mr SK Tripathi TELL ME who trying to show that he is GOD in this Democracy by subverting the Cabinet decision to self benefit.
digi
the biggest problems with this IAS Officers is their high avaerage age of 26/27 compared to 20/21 of armed forces Officers at the time of Joining.
They go through an exam with little element of mathematics in it.They just sit and mug up the books and pass the exam.Most of them join IAS for money and the power.They all know that they get underhand money in crores.A case in point is the thief secretary of Uttar Pradesh who was rolling in riches.
These guys join IAS after doing some or the other job,and pick up the habit of corruption.In armed focres,corruption is an exception while in IAS it is a way of life.
They are Beyond Repair,,,,,,,
@annony 11.12 am
"These guys join IAS after doing some or the other job,and pick up the habit of corruption.In armed focres,corruption is an exception while in IAS it is a way of life."
HA,HA,HA........Whom you are fooling? I hope , atleast, not yourself. In ASC,Ordenance, MES, BRO,EME, MGO,Station Hq, corruption is praticed as a rule and as a way of life. Other branches of army, air force etc are also no less. You are talking about IAS, what you know about it???
Whereever army comes into contat with civilians there is corruption.Like u said MES,,,,
I know quite a bit aboit IAS,,,got quite a few friends there....It's sad but anyone who is not corrupt is treated as an ass.
Lt. Col. were never treated at par with Directors
The Public Enterprises Selection Board has been following the following criterion for selection to the Board level posts in the Central PSUs since 1991:
Schedule A posts: Additional Secretary and Lt.General & equivalents
Schedule B posts: Joint Secretary and Major Generals & equivalents
Schedule C posts: Director and Brigadiers & equivalents
Schedule D posts : Deputy Secretary and Lt. Colonel & equivalents.
The Lt. Col. were never treated at par with Directors.
My Dear above,
iam in agreement with you. One thousand percent. Branding alawys does not help. Had all of them in IAS and IPS been so corrupt the institution would have failed long ago.
The rule of the organisation applies to IAS also. 20 percent do the job of other 80 percent...20 percent of them sustain other 80 percent..
It is those 20 percent of the IAS who are sustaining us..
Is not it true of the Armed Forces..?? However in the Armed Forces, it is 40 percent carrying the other 60 percent on their backs...
Go to the logistics of th IAF. If you are not corrupt you are a fool...so is BRO MES..GREF...
The 40 percent are those who have no such ooprtunities..or those who are destined to not to spoil their this life (Janma) and get over or progress forwards in the cycle of their existance..
There are indeed some who would rather inch to higher cycle of Janma rather than go down tah aldder in attaining emancipation..
Rakshas call them fool...
There is No dearth of good intentioned people in IAS and even IPS or Finace...
The Country runs because of them...
Jai Hind to them..
Extracts from a PSEB circular for the post of Director(Operations & Technical)
3. Eligibility:-
"(d) Government Officers
Provided that notwithstanding the qualifications and experience prescribed, officers of the level of Director in Government of India or on equivalent scale of pay or Brigadier in the Army or equivalent rank in Navy/Air Force, on the date of vacancy with adequate experience in the relevant field will be eligible for consideration on immediate absorption basis."
Another extract of circular for the post of Managing Director (Helicopter Complex), Hindustan Aeronautics Ltd.:-
3. Eligibility:-
(d) Government Officers
Provided that notwithstanding the qualifications and experience prescribed, officers of the level of Joint Secretary in Govt. of India or on equivalent scale of pay or Major General in the Army or equivalent rank in Navy/Air Force, on the date of vacancy with adequate experience in the relevant field will be eligible for consideration on immediate absorption basis.""
Therefore please stop twisting and misinterpretation of facts and stop misleading the readers.
To All the Dear Babus,
The status of the Armed Forces is required to be above you all because when you all fail, the Armed Forces are required to act only then. the Principle of Command says that he who delivers commands. Simple...
A Lt Gen of the Armed Forces is required to be above the DGP of the Police because Armed Forces will come to play only when the DGP has failed.
How can a failed DGP give command to the Armed Forces Lt gen in that situation uless you are supergods? How Can a politically affiliated, failed and corrupt DGP ? Secretary of the State lord over him as the purpose of Lt gen is to resoore a situation fucked up by you all.
It is also required that way because Babus and Police all have Political, caste, creed and and even religious affiliations . You all as DGPs and Chief Secys of the states are Capable of acting as enemies of the Indian Union. the most anti Armed Forces persons Jawar Lal Nehru our beloved PM knew it and never infringed this status inspit of his known avrsion to the Armed Forces. Todya one stupid IAS officer Chabdrasekhar who was shown his place on MOD his doen a thing which Nehru never ever indented to venture into. sad.
Just sad and egging and promoting other to revolt...that much for the wisdom of your top man...
It is the practicle requirement of keeping those eventualities in Mind that a Corps Commander as a Lt Gen is required to be the boss to handle the situation and not subverted plolitically aligned DGP or State Secy. It has happened many times.
It must sink into your impracticle minds that Armed Forces are the "Final Instruments" of the Indian Union. You have proved by history to be unreliable and the Armed Forces have restored the sanctity of Mothe India. They are the final instrument of the Political Control of the Indian Union..not you all sir. Armed Forces are required to take control of AIS and IPS Subversions in the states and not the other way round. My dear IAS and IPS , sirs.
You are assessed and visualized as potentail mutineers, turncoats and agents of subversion of the Indian Union because of your affliations and prejudices. You have proved time and agin that that assumtion is true. You can be (could be) those but Not the Armed Forces.
My dear IAS ans IPS Sirs, In the end, Jai Hind of the Indian union as enshrined in the Constitution of Indai will be shubed up yours by the Armed Forces. Armed Forces have done that in many states. It is not a theory or imagination but our contemporary history. Chandrasekhar would rather dmage and rewrite taht history rather than be a true Nationalist. he is IAS and not a visionary or understanding the past visionaries. he is simply avenging his sour taste of MOD.
I thought you all guys are supposede to be a little visionaries. But i find you are not even educated. Be a little educated to know some contemporary history and the lessons learnt. look at what is happening in Orissa. DGP is being reshuffled like cards in the pack with the balme that he has turned political. When the Next one also fails then the Army moves in. in that situation when the Union Govt wants to assert itself, you expect the Army Corps Commander (lt Gen) to take orders from the DGP. You all are mad.
Army has been loosing lives so that on restoration of situation another bee minded DGP could be posted to create yet another Kandhmal or something else. In Independence India it has been happening. Of late more often than Not....You loot and Armed forces pay in lives for the consequences of your loot or your self serving politics...
Otherwise, I assure you, what is the need of equations. where are you and where are Armed forces. Not near each other. Armed Frorces have Nothing to do with you third class wrecks. It only the the constitution and requirements of "mother India" that calles for laying down the equations for the "Contingencies".
All grat and patriotic Congress leaders, even though being apprehensive of the Armed Forces because your being "Chuglikhors" never lost sight of the utility and political purpose of the Armed Forces. Now it is your uncalled for opportunity that you want to make a fool of Manmohan < pranab da> Antony Madame Sonia ...
You know ...the willy foxes that perhaps Armed Forces Political value or Armed Forces as Fianl Instrument of Political Contol is not known to them...and it should fall in your hands..
Your have enginnered a Coup against the Political amsters of the Country and want to take their palce...
Anty sensible Armed Forces personnel would allow it over his dead body...
We are here to serve the Constitution of India..our Political leaders and Not a Bureaucray....
You are inciting and provoking Armed Forces as you are taking the ardent and thinking soldiers for granted..it is a citizens Army which has right to love Pranab, sonia, Atal ot Nehru...
Not Chandra Sekhar...
Just buzz off..lay aside and remain in your palce..
Will the Political leadership of Sonia and Dr manmohan, Prab da and other including PJP rise to the occassion and stop this IAS anti constititutioanl and Political Consiracy..
This an appeal from a Citizen...
For IAs and IPS Brothers:
If that much does not sink into your prejudiced minds then you all are not worth being IAS and IPS.
Jai Hind.
FOR PEOPLE OF INDIA THIS IS WHAT ARMY MEANS......
ALL TO READ...
SOURCE: TIMES OF INDIA
Bhaktapara (Darrang): In villages like Bhaktapara, Kalitapara and Puniya, it is a peculiar scene — there are only men around. There are neither women nor children. No clatter of utensils or wailing of infants. Only an eerie silence, broken by the footfall of the grim-faced men who have stayed back to protect their homes.
For fear of attacks, the women and children have fled to the security of relief camps that have come up in Darrang district in the wake of the past three days of rioting. And they are not willing to return to their villages in a hurry. They trust neither police nor the district administration, nor even the central paramilitary forces. They want the army to set up camps in the disturbed villages before they return.
But there are only 10 columns of army deployed in the two riot-ravaged districts of Darrang and Udalguri. These are enough only for foot patrolling and area dominance. Till Monday, the army had also pressed in a few helicopters for aerial survey, but there are certainly not enough boots on the ground to cover every village.
On Tuesday, 80-year-old Khukesh Garo was sitting huddled in a corner of the camp where the Garos have taken shelter. He is from Barduar village and fled on Saturday. “Some people were killed. I can’t say how many. I ran for my life,” Garo said. Close by was the corner where Bengalis have set up their shanties.
“Bangalipatty was set on fire by the minorities,” said Ajay Kumar Goswami, of Sheikhpur village. “We can’t go back. Who will arrange for our security? We can trust only the army,” Goswami said.
Mahendra Basumatari of Puniya village still cannot believe that a Bodo dominated village in the Bodo Territorial Development Council area could come under such an attack. “The minorities — both locals and outsiders — mounted the assault,” Basumatari said.
People like Basumatari and Bodo of Puniya are angry with the police and CRPF. Some of the killings and torching had taken place under the nose of the forces, they allege.
TIME waste,keep, LT .TO MAJ.GEN .IN PB4.AS there is shortage of officers ,services should not post any officer to civilian organisations.
AK sing
Go wrown your selg..
For us from this time onwards....
director is a lt Col...
Dig is a Col...
Jt secy is below a maj gen...
This also an advertisemsnt...
Go and Hop off on your minor leg...
Do not disturb the peace of the community..
Go to the supreme Court..
I do not accept a fouteen year service chap tp be equivallant to 24 years Armed Forces officer..
what is your problem...
You will remain a ababu only...Just shut up please..
Is there any Constitutional guidelines like that...
Friends, must keep a track of all these letters bandied about by the IDSE guys, which quote some non-discript undersecretary posted to some vermiculture department issuing orders which put the paan spitting, chappal wearing directors equal to brigadiers.
You guys remember the incident reported in papers a few years ago where a magistrate in Gujarat, after taking some bribe, had even issued warrants against the president of India.
These guys have been at it for a pretty long time and now since these letters are in public domain, therefore along with the increased pay, the Chiefs must insist upon the government to put these contradictory letters away once and for all.
Else, ten years down the line, these IDSE guys will be jumping about with the issue again.
I appreciate Mr navdeep work on indian military benefits.as blog said but if u have such proof of discremency why mr. navdeep singh goto supreme court and get the justice of their services as they practice in high court. As I think mr navdeep singh completely know that armed force designation comparison with civilian counterparts does not match compeletely & it change with deptt. to deptt. in some cases SE equal with Col. & in some cases it higher than Col. so why Mr. Mandeep create confusion that SE is always lower than Col.
@ dear annonys...
JUST TELL ME ONE THING HAVE U READ THE WARRANT OF PRECEDENCE (WOP)..THAT IS THE ULTIMATE DOCUMENT ...DONT QUOTE ADVERTISEMENTS..FOR GOD SAKE...GET A COPY OF WOP THEN TALK..REST ALL IS BULLSHIT ..AND TWISTING OF FACTS BY PEOPLE AS PER THEIR DESIRE..
dear anonymous 9.43 pm
1. warrent of precedence bearing no. 33-Pres/79 dated 26 jul 1979 has been issued by President Sectt. Note -1 of Latest version amended till 13 oct 2007 ( available on this blog also ) is appended below:
" Note-1 : The order in this Table of Precedence is meant for State and Ceremonial occassions and has no application in the day-to-day business of Government."
as per this note this table of precedence is not meant for equivalence. For day to day functioning, equivalence between Armed Forces and civilians has been issued by tha govt for DRDO, AFHQ, BRO, DGQA, IDS, DAD etc.
As per these Lt. Col is equal to Deputy sectt level (maximum).
2. notwithstanding above, your attention is invited to Article 26 of this table of precedence as per which Jt Sec. & eqv officers are equal to Maj Gen or Equivlenet.
3. Please read the notifications properly before drawing any inference.
For all of those who are blogging without the knowledge of actual beginning of the warrant of precedence in India. Point to be noted is that while it was by No of years for Civil Officers, Military equivlence was by Rank .
Warrant of Precedence as it exists today owes its origins in the Royal Warrant by which by which Precedence was regulated in British India, dated 10th September 1850. Civil Servants (East India Company ) had been divided under the Queens Warrant, into six classes according to date and their standings. Following is the extract from page 60 & 70 of the book “ PEERAGE, BARONETAGE, AND KNIGHTAGE, GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND, FOR 1860, INCLUDING ALL THE TITLED CLASSES.” By Robert P Dod, Esq, Associate of King's College, London. Published by Whittaker and Co, Ave Maria Lane, MDCCCLX. Gilbert and Rivington, Printers, St Johns Square ; 1860 :--
Rule 29. Civilians of the 1st , i.e. of 35 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Maj Generals.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to seniority, which is computed amongst the civilians form the date of there entering the class to which they belong and amongst the military officers from the date of their commissions.
30.Civilians of the 2nd class i.e. of 20 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival, and Colonels.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
34.Civilians of the 3rd class , i.e. of 12 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Lt Col.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
35.Civilians of the 4th class , i.e. of 8 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Majors.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
36.Civilians of the 5th class , i.e. of 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Captains.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
37. Civilians of the 6th class , i.e. of under 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
dear Pawan,
1. it is saddening to note that indian armed forces want to stick to rules of british period despite the fact that these have been changed by Govt of indepandent India. Following facts are worth mentioning as lot of things have changedsince then :
(a) In british period indians were mostly at other than officers rank in armed forces.
(b) No ration was given to officers.
(c) When armed forces officers were coming to civil organisations like MES they were being paid at civil rate only.
(d) Lt Col used to be CO of regiment ( now Lt Col is doing company cdr job)
(e) Lt Col was a selection post and not time scale promotion without facing any promotion committee.
(f) India used to have numurous princely states which have been disbanded after indepandence.
(g)Latest table of precedence has been issued in 1979. It is surprising that after almost 29 years Armed forces are making hue and cry
2. officers serving in present era have joined forces fully knowing this precedence then why halla gulla now.
3. in any case table of precedence is for ceremonial purpose only and one should not read too much in it.
thanks
@AK Singh
Merely because some vague PSU is seeking a Lt Col on a Dy Secy GoI equivalent post means nothing. I have, in the Lt Col=NFSG blog posted an advert from GoI seeking Majors on posts meant for NFSG officers in the scale of Rs 14300-18300, what do you say to that ?
@Anony 9.24PM, 8th Oct
First you need to improve your angrezi. Army officers do not have to knock the doors of any Hon'ble Court for relief. MES officers have already done that and lost. It's funny how nobody from the MES has reacted or appealed against the decision by the Hon'ble CAT. Shouting matches do not lead to anything, counter if you must, but counter with logic.
That is the point.!!!
The status of Armed Forces has been continuously lowered. What is today is now no more acceptable.
YOU CIVILIAN GUYS CANNOT UNDERSTAND WHY THIS HUE AND CRY?
Here are two submissions.
Its NOT about money so Armed Forces are very Happy to keep Lt Col in PB3 just get every one drawing lesser pay pre 6PC back to PB3. It will save Crores and give us the Parity also.
That sounds off???
And Izzat in Army....what is it?
I quote from a letter to IE
I will try to explain the centrality of the idea of izzat – that the english word ‘honor approximates. To help me in this endeavour, you may like to imagine having been asked to lead your employees to their probable deaths. I believe the talk of ‘merely a point of order’ in ‘It’s the uniform’ must not be trivialized. And while I have no intention of sounding alarmist, I recount an old episode to try to explain the bottom line of professional soldiering.
Towards the end of the ‘65 stalemate in the Lahore Sector, a correspondent happened to ask the Commanding Officer (CO) of 3 JAT, a unit which had just got the better of a Pakistani battalion in a bloody battle (3 JAT lost 5 officers and 90 men on the night of 21/22 Sep while the Pak battalion lost about 300 dead and rest captured including their CO), as to what made the men fight such a gruesome battle? The correspondent, eagerly, without waiting for an answer hastily added that it must have been the love of their country. Lt Col Desmond Hayde, the CO, pointing to his No 2, said, “You see Major Shekhawat? He fights because he holds nothing dearer than the respect and standing he enjoys in the eyes of his men, family, and community back home. His fear of losing that standing overcomes his fear of death. The men, of course, fight because Major Shekhawat fights.”
The idea, at the core, is therefore rather simple. You place the leader at such a pedestal that losing that place is all that he fears. The followers follow because they see the “highly placed fellow” fighting fearlessly (seemingly, at least).
Now, if you belittle his protests of his degradation of status (and worse - tell him that he is getting paid more than he deserves, worse still - egg him on that he has lost discipline and honour for having the temerity to even protest his degradation, worst of all – deny him any channel and means to protest), then, you are in effect directly and surely denuding the fighting capability of the nation’s Armed Forces. There is no dearth of lecherous (and stronger than India) countries in the dog eat dog world.
All you IDSE guys, just stop comparing yourself here...kis ke saath khara hone ki koshis kar rahe ho? Dont put yourself to such shame. And us. We are a breed that is far apart, and maybe you need to read the writing on the wall.
All CO's are acting Cols they will become Full Cols only at about 20 yrs service. Simply put you have taken pannga with the wrong section now. It is the sword arm of the services.
And lastly civilians can't be compared with us, not on ranks. Only on basis of service only we must allow any broad comparisons and we could have harmony then. Wont the civilians be happier to have it that way?
As per command and control, Army is the last bastion so it is supreme. If civilians are to be controlled they need to be absorbed under Army Act temporarily till Army carries out THEIR JOB.
Guys dont loose too much sleep. you did wake a sleeping tiger. well there is a price you gotta pay.
Its about Izzat. The kind YOU CIVILIANS will never know.
Regards to all.
PS
I will request to bloggers from armed forces not to use threatening language and foul words as thse blogs are meant for healthy discussions based on the facts. Sometimes facts may be quite bitter and not of one’s liking but that does not authorise anyone to loose balance of his mind and utter such foul words.
At least this is not expected from defece forces who are considered an educated lot. It appears that discipline for which armed forces are known for is at stake even in defence forces.
God save the country
@ANNON 9.10AM.
(You joker,doing cut paste exercise from Pragmatic's blog).
KUTTE KI DOOM KABHI SIDHI NAHIN HO SAKTI.
Again same rant of civil/ military .
GOD SAVE THE COUNTRY FROM FOOLS LIKE YOU.
Mr Navdeep Please refer to services rules pre independence wherein the Lt Col with 23 Years service was eual to SE of 14 years service and scale of SE was eual to Brig/DIG THANKS. let us not gorget we are civilian officer or the Army officer only for few decades athe cost of common men and let us not jointly heat them.Also why this debate, just ask Army chief ti regulate selection through UPSCCivil service exams with a fitness criterion of higher order let us have same service conditions. Armymen being too greedy, not disclosing 100% perks they get while serving all in peace. Let us not forget the job of a solidier is not tougher than a farmer or a miner. It is much easy. The result we are seeing today is because we have Maj generals who have not seen any operations. We have a large croud of solidiers who do not fire even a single round in a year, donot train even for a day in lieu of 2 months every year while getting pay at war scale, we have 8th pass SL officers going to Col rank. We are all cheating countrymen. Let us remember, civ or mil.Thanks
All Maj shekhawats are not in army, for each Shekhawat i Army there are 1000 in countryside and 10 in civilian services. Fighting a war in war is easier than fighting a war in peace and more so without gun, it needs more courage to take Mahatma route than Gun. Thanks.
@Anony 11.41AM
"Mr Navdeep Please refer to services rules pre independence wherein the Lt Col with 23 Years service was eual to SE of 14 years service and scale of SE was eual to Brig/DIG THANKS"
Sorry, you are 'throwing' your info at a person who is unfortunately better informed than you.
An SE was never equated with a Brig/DIG, neither in pay nor in precedence. An SE was equated with a Lt Col and a Conservator of Forests on Article No 47 of Notification No F/49/9/35 Public(G). DIG was listed on Article 45 while a Colonel was on Article 38 alongwith members of the ICS with 23 years' service.
Do not show off your knowledge without being aware of the facts.
If lenght of service is taken as criterion for deciding inter se seniority irrespective of service conditions/ selection procedure,then a Major with 6 years service will be senior to PM with 4.5 years service and President with 2 years.
HA...Ha....Ha...
God save this country from these neo-intelligents
@All
We all are compromising our dignity by indulging in debate/discussion with these corrupt bas*****.
Its in their blood and it will take atleast three genrations to cleanse them.
Why waste time persuading them,instead we should try genetic engg to achieve faster results.
Scientists are trying genetic mutation to covert Anapheles mosquito(malaria carriers) to some other harmless species.Similar technology can be used to get rid of these unethical breeds.
They can never understand virtues like honesty,integrity,patriotism.
You can't blame them because they have never heard such words from their fore fathers.
@ ALL CIVIL BROTHERS...
THINGS WILL BE CLEAR AS SOON AS THE TRIO OF MINISTERS SUBMIT THEIR REPORT..SO Y R U WASTING UR ENERGY AND OUR TIME...JUST RELAX..ELEPHANTS DONT CHANGE THEIR PATH WHEN OTHERS.....
@ dear defence people...
never compromise on ur dignity ..follow protocols..and dont give undue attention to other service people when they visit ur organisation..dont go overboard to lookafter them..they dont deserve...it
1. Indian Army is well known for its ethos “Service before Self” but for the first time in the history of Independent India, by challenging the Cabinet decision on implementation of Sixth Central Pay Commission (SCPC) recommendations, Armed Forces have reversed their ethos. The issue has also gained National importance due to media hype with distorted facts and figures. One of the core issues is with regards to pay and parity of Lt Cols and equivalent. It is learnt from the print as well as electronic media that they have been downgraded by not fixing their pay at par with that of civilian Directors.
2. The issue in question has two dimensions, firstly - higher pay for Lt Cols and secondly for parity. There is no denying that the people in Services deserve better compensation compared to their civilian counterparts for reasons known to all. Successive pay commissions have accordingly maintained the edge for defence personnel by granting hefty benefits which are not granted to their civilian counterparts, such as “MSP, Rank Pay, Free Ration, Disturbance allowances, Operation Allowances, Kit Maintenance Allowances, Technical Pay, three months leave, ete. Certain other allowances and facilities are also granted to Armed forces on account of special and unique service conditions. It is pertinent to mention that these benefits remain unaffected even when they are posted to other than core duties. It would be crystal clear if these hefty benefits are weighed in terms of money, then they would be drawing much more than that of a civilian Director. Thus the issue of pay no more exists as voiced now by the three Service Chiefs as part of their damage control mission.
3. The issue now remains is the parity. An impression has been created by the Media as if Lt Cols and equivalents of Armed forces are too senior and competent to civilian Directors in the Ministry of Defence. In this connection the following facts are submitted.
(a) Prior to SCPC the pay scales of civilian Directors and Lt Cols were as under:-
Civilian Director Rs 14300-18300
Lt Col Rs 13500-17100 (It includes the disturbance allowance as reflected in Para 2.3.6 in page No 72 of SCPC report.)
As per laid down policy of Government of India the terminal end value of the scale determines the seniority. The fact remains that pay scale of Lt Col was Rs 13500-17100 +1600 rank pay and not Rs 15100-18600 as being made out mischievously. The Lt Cols have been correctly shown equivalent to Joint Director (Rs 12000-16500) by SCPC on page 74 of their report. The same relativity was given by earlier Pay Commissions also as mentioned by SCPC in their report on page 73. It is evident from above that the civilian Directors are superior to Lt Cols.
(b) As per Armed Services own order (AO 8/85), Cols are working in posts tenable by Directors and Lt Cols in posts tenable by Jt Directors. Similarly as per Air HQ letter No. AirHQ/20701/792/Org. dt 09 Mar 2003, Gp Capts are working as Directors and Wing Commanders are working as Jt Directors. Same is the status of officers working in NHQ as per Naval HQ letter No. VCNS/101/T-memo/2003 dt 12 Sep 2003. It is thus obvious that Lt Cols have been working as Joint Directors and not Directors.
(c) Consequent to restructuring of Armed Forces by AV Singh committee the Army officers are given automatic time bound promotions from the rank of Lieutenant to Lt Col vide GOI, MOD letter No. 18(1)/2004-D(G.S.-1) dt 21 Dec 2004. This has enabled the Army officers to wear the rank of Lt Col on completion of 13 years of service, without facing even a single selection board. The service of thirteen years includes four years of their initial training period. Thus the effective service required for promotion to Lt Col rank is nine years only, which is same as required for a civilian officer to become a Joint Director. Therefore Lt Col is at par with a civilian Joint Director.
(d) The Army Officers of Lt Cols are also posted as Garrison Engineers based on AV Singh Committee Report. The Garrison Engineer post is tenable by a Civilian Deputy Director in the pay scale of Rs. 10,000-15,200. This shows that the Lt Cols in MES are posted against vacancy of Dy Directors and Jt Directors.
(e) The Army officers are always posted in Departments like Military Engineer Services (MES), Border Road Organisation (BRO) etc. at higher post than their legitimate level. For example, in MES a Brigadier is posted as Chief Engineer (CE) which is tenable by a SAG Level Officer, a Col is posted as Additional Chief Engineer (ACE) which is tenable by a Principal Director. This illegitimate posting has not only been causing ripples in the organization but also has made them to claim the posts legitimate. They have constantly been treating civilian officers, who are better qualified and much more experienced, very unfairly in general and in particular in MES. In fact armed forces want dilution of civilian ranks by equating senior civilian officers to their junior ranks.
4. The issue of parity or the so called equivalency in MES was discussed, deliberated and decided after a prolonged persuasion over a decade and the Presidential Order of redesignation was issued vide MOD No 6/14/2001/D(Wks) dated 17 Nov 2003, under which the SEs in the scale of Rs 14300-18300 have been redesignated as Directors at par with Cols. Also the EEs in the scale of Rs 12000-16500 have been redesignated as Jt Directors at par with Lt Cols. The same has also been ratified in case of BRO vide GOI ID No BRDB/06/86/98-GE-1 dated 03Jan 2005. This equation has now been further strengthened by the SCPC by introducing the concept of Grade Pay.
5. It can be easily concluded from above that the issue of pay and parity of Lt Cols and equivalent with that of civilian Directors is not a genuine demand and is against all logic and rational. It appears that the Armed Forces in connivance with the Media are driving sympathy to legitimate themselves and to dominate their legitimate senior civilian officers.
6. At the time of second cadre review in Army in1985, all posts of Lt Col like unit commanders, were made tenable by Colonel. Posting of a Lt Col to Paramilitary organization was not touched by second cadre review as these are Ex-cadre appointments. Army is trying to take advantage of the situation. The logical solution of the alleged disparity is that all post tenable by a Lt Col in Paramilitary organisation may be made tenable by a Col.
@Anony 1.09PM
Thanks for the eyeopening disinformation.
I'll reply with a full fledged comprehensive post tomorrow or day after, till then I'll reserve my comments.
"Same is the status of officers working in NHQ as per Naval HQ letter No. VCNS/101/T-memo/2003 dt 12 Sep 2003"
By the way, the said memo has been withdrawn.
"The service of thirteen years includes four years of their initial training period. Thus the effective service required for promotion to Lt Col rank is nine years only, which is same as required for a civilian officer to become a Joint Director. Therefore Lt Col is at par with a civilian Joint Director."
Shows the shallowness of your information.
My dear anonymous,
either you are not from MES or you are deliberately trying to misleading the bloggers. ref your para 3 (c) Lt Col is 13 years physical service plus 4 years rigourous training (NDA) 18 months for Direct Entries which is not counted towards service. Where as even in BSF, ITBP, IPS, IAS etc Trg period is counted as Service. If MES feels proud of lowering the status and izzat of Defence which they serve in it only reflects of the mindset which is eroding the credibility of this country. If MES pers can proudly say that IAS & IPS (don't forget 50% of them reserved will not get selected for MES also on their own steam ) are more honest, efficient, reliable and dedicated to the cause of nation Then please reveal the names and addresses of such persons so that IAS and IPS can use their valuable services in improving their shoddy image. I feel sad when MES is called corrupt because it is part of Defence. For this blame actually should go to Civilian Services who have been instrumental in corrupting the civil setup and society. Not only MES but any Defence Organisation which comes in contact gets a bad name. That is the power of Civil Services.
Kindly visit the following link....an interesting story about way of life in army....
http://indiatoday.digitaltoday.in/index.php?issueid=&id=1594&option=com_content&task=view§ionid=36
wish you a happy reading...
For all of those who are blogging without the knowledge of actual beginning of the warrant of precedence in India and talk of pre-independence WOP there is interesting piece of information for all. Point to be noted is that while it was by No of years for Civil Officers, Military equivlence was by Rank .
Warrant of Precedence as it exists today owes its origins in the Royal Warrant by which by which Precedence was regulated in British India, dated 10th September 1850. Civil Servants (East India Company ) had been divided under the Queens Warrant, into six classes according to date and their standings. Following is the extract from page 60 & 70 of the book “ PEERAGE, BARONETAGE, AND KNIGHTAGE, GREAT BRITAIN AND IRELAND, FOR 1860, INCLUDING ALL THE TITLED CLASSES.” By Robert P Dod, Esq, Associate of King's College, London. Published by Whittaker and Co, Ave Maria Lane, MDCCCLX. Gilbert and Rivington, Printers, St Johns Square ; 1860.
Rule 29. Civilians of the 1st Class, i.e. of 35 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Maj Generals.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to seniority, which is computed amongst the civilians form the date of there entering the class to which they belong and amongst the military officers from the date of their commissions.
30.Civilians of the 2nd class i.e. of 20 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival, and Colonels.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
34.Civilians of the 3rd class , i.e. of 12 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Lt Col.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
35.Civilians of the 4th class , i.e. of 8 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Majors.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
36.Civilians of the 5th class , i.e. of 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and Captains.
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
37. Civilians of the 6th class , i.e. of under 4 years standing from the date of rank assigned them on their arrival and
Ranking jointly amongst each other according to rule No 29.
Note from Pawan : Defence still maintains its rank/command structure to a great degree where as civil setup has been constantly lowering years of service reqd and upgrading their posts.
Critics will say Defence has also done the same. for their info :
Brigades, divisions, corps are still commanded by the same ranks as it was over 100 years. Brig has minimum 28 years service ( trg period not counted )
Unit commanded by Colonels ( are actually Substantive Lt Col )
company by Maj
Change in Lt col was made reluctantly only after Paramilitary and Civil Services during past 50 years constantly and shamelessly kept lowering the service profile of their officers.
dear Pawan,
You have gone down upto 1850.
If you further go down the history then you will find that subedar was incharge of whole suba . Based on this you will say that today's distt magistrate is equal to Subedar.
Very intelligent twisting of facts just for getting extra money.
Table of precedence is for ceremonial purpose and not for equivalence. This fact can not be negated by putting n number of arguments.
source :shiv aroor blog....
On Tuesday evening, the Ministry of Defence formally denied the existence of a sensitive article from South Block that Headlines Today put on air the same afternoon -- an article honestly, violently and articulately full of hate for the bureaucracy, and packed with insider detail of just how the pay commission mess has been allowed to snowball into the crisis it is now. Denial apart (there's no way the Ministry could accept the existence of such an article -- that would be tantamount to admitting just how dangerous things have gotten), we stuck by our story and went on air with it again primetime at 9.30pm Tuesday night, double pep, through the night and the earlier half of today. The note, being called an "article" has been authored by senior serving officer(s). Well since the Ministry of Defence denies the existence of the article (in essence, a retort to Shekhar Gupta's column from October 4), and we stand by it, I thought I'd put it up here for anyone who cares to have a look at it. These are excerpts:
Setting Up of Committee of Secretaries (CoS). CoS was set up to look into and resolve the anomalies in the 6th CPC report, as highlighted by various Central Govt cadres.
Armed Forces Representative Not Included In Any Capacity. Verbal assurances were offered by the officials of the Def Ministry that the issues raised by the Armed Forces were well understood by them and will be pursued most honestly and diligently by the Def Secy (a member in the CoS). Hence, they justified non-inclusion of any Armed Forces Rep in the CoS, even in advisory or observer capacity.
Opaqueness in Deliberations of CoS. In absence of any communication from the CoS, the Chairman COSC formally sought that the findings and recommendation of the CoS be shared with the Armed Forces for them to attach their concurrence or observations, if any, prior to the same being submitted to the Cabinet for “Informed Decision Making”. No formal or Informal Response was received to this formal request.
Cabinet Decision : Ill Informed. The Cabinet could not be faulted in giving its approval to the recommendations of the CoS. They were fair in assuming that Armed Forces views would have been objectively presented and analysed as the Def Secy was on the panel of CoS.
Questionable Manner of Dissemination of Govt Notification of the CPC. The Govt Notification was made available to the Services HQ late on Friday (after 5.30 PM the office closing time in South Block). Further, only that portion of the notification was made available which pertained to the Armed Forces. This prevented the concerned Armed Forces officials to study the Govt Notfn at least until offices opened on Monday; and even then, unable to do any comparative analysis vis-à-vis provisions made for other Govt Services, they would not be in position to analyse the implications on parity/disparity issues for quite some time thereafter.
Major Discrepancies Noticed by Armed Forces in Govt Notfn. While being exposed to continued “informal pressure from the bureaucracy” to commence the implementation process, the Armed Forces, with ‘patient haste’ conducted a detailed study and analysis to find “four major discrepancies” in the Govt notfn. While, one of the core anomalies was the legacy of the original CPC report, the Armed Forces were surprised that the other three had been introduced surreptitiously by the CoS itself (please remember, the CoS was constituted to resolve anomalies and NOT create them).
Chairman COSC and Services Chiefs Meet RM. The RM, when presented the facts pertaining to the 4 Core Anomalies, was convinced of their logic and legitimacy and promised the Service Chiefs to take up the issue with the PM. He directed the officials in the MoD to communicate the same to the PMO, with his recommendations for early resolution.
The Bureaucratic Subversion. In absence of the RM, the MoD did not send any communication to the PMO as directed by the Minister. Instead, it sent a note for consideration of the officials of the Fin Ministry. The note thus sent, diluted the Armed Forces’ case as was presented to the RM and with which the RM had already concurred. The officials of the Fin Ministry diluted the Armed Forces case even further and presented the same to the Fin Minister. The Note, thus rejecting most of the Armed Forces’ observations and proposals was to be dispatched to the PMO.
Service Chiefs Meet Finance Minister: Bureaucratic Subversion Partially Exposed. The Service Chiefs (at least the two of them) met the Fin Minister before the Note rejecting the Armed Forces’ case could be dispatched to the PMO. After detailed presentation of their case, the Fin Minister acknowledged that “officials in his Ministry had misled him and had also misrepresented facts”.
Bureaucratic Fiat Issued Separately to Three Services to Notify Govt Notfn on Pay Commission so as to Ensure Its Implementation wef 01 Oct 08. Three separate notes were issued separately directly to the three Services HQ (please remember, all communication on the subject between the MoD and the Services were with the Central Pay Commission Cell in the COSC and not directly with the Services HQ). Moreover, the notes were issued by the MoD in absence of the RM who still was away on foreign visit.
Service Chiefs Meet PM. The PM responded favorably to the Service Chiefs’ presentation of the core anomalies. He also stated that he had received favorable comments on the issues, from the Fin Minister but, the PMO could not proceed to take a view as it had not yet received any communication on the issue from the MoD. (Please remember again that the RM, before proceeding on visit abroad, had instructed his Ministry to send a formal communication to the PMO).
Service Chiefs Meet RM : Fears of Further Exposure of Bureaucratic Subversion. Service Chiefs apprised the RM of their meetings with the Fin Minister and the PM. They also apprised him of the fact that no communication had been sent by the MoD, as personally directed by him) to the PMO. The RM directed a letter drafted immediately, recommending all Armed Forces’ proposals. The same was dispatched, addressed to the PM and personally signed by the RM.
Services Chiefs Issue Communication to All Ranks. The nature of sudden and intense media campaign which had potential of subverting the morale and maybe discipline of personnel, issue communications to all ranks in respective services.
The following basic principles must be considered and informed view taken in the context of the issue being discussed:
Is Govt Authority synonymous with the Bureaucratic Authority? Is Subservience of the Military to the Civil Authority in a Democracy synonymous with Subservience of the Military to Bureaucratic Authority?
Each one in the Armed Forces have grown, since their initial induction, learning that in a Democracy, in the context of the Military’s Subservience to the Civil Authority, the Civil Authority signifies the “Elected Govt” and at the larger levels, the “Parliament” and the “Constitution of India”. On day-to-day functioning, the bureaucracy may represent the elected Govt but it surely does NOT replace elected Govt.
The bureaucracy misled the Cabinet into believing that their recommendations were based on fair consideration of the views and logic of the Armed Forces (if it was not so, the RM, FM and PM would not have been surprised and found merit in the issues raised by the Armed Forces subsequently).
The bureaucracy, knowing the schedule of foreign visits by the RM and PM, deliberately worked in a manner that would prevent exhaustive deliberations with the deadline of 01 Oct and thus pressurise (the pressure was brought through a section of the media, led by Indian Express and a print news agency) the Armed Forces to implement the Pay Commission in its current form and deferring the resolution of the core anomalies indefinitely. This is exactly what they achieved in the case of previous Pay Commission.
What is most disconcerting in the bureaucratic design that they resorted to “disobeying instructions of the RM”; and “Misleading the FM and Misrepresenting Facts Before Him”. The charge of “Defiance of Govt Authority” that is being labeled upon the Service Chiefs actually should be labeled upon the Bureaucracy.
As for the Service Chiefs withholding Notifying the Govt Order, it is a simple case of they being morally bound to apprise the Govt of their perception of anomalies and ill-effects of implementing its order, prior to blindly executing it. Once the Govt (represented by the RM and PM) found merit in reconsidering the aspects brought before it by the Armed Forces and assured the Service Chiefs of having a re-look, until it got back to the Services with fresh instructions, the Services cannot be blamed for ‘defiance’ or ‘disobedience’. Once the Govt did come back during the previous weekend with interim orders, the Services have accepted the same and are implementing.
As far as the communications issued by the three Services Chiefs to all ranks is concerned, one ought to read the complete documents and understand the context. There is nothing in them which can be distantly construed as ‘defiance of govt authority’. In fact, in all manuals on military leadership and of late, also included in teachings on HR by the corporates, one of the abiding principles is that of “keep men informed”. This is expressly meant for men not following prey to rumours, propaganda and misinformation as they can seriously subvert the morale, discipline and ultimately operational effectiveness of any organized group and especially, the Armed Forces.
Mr Shekhar Gupta’s contention of the Service Chiefs behaving as “Union Leaders” egged by cheering ex-Servicemen, is gross misrepresentation. The Armed Forces are denied right to form unions, firmly in the belief that the concerns of each individual are addressed by a strict chain of command. This chain leads to the Service Chiefs. The Service Chiefs are thus doing what they ought to do in a democratic setup and purely as per democratic norms which govern the interface between the Civil Govt leadership and its subordinate military leadership. Mr Shekhar Gupta has also attributed the Services Chiefs with “Open Defiance of Civil Authority”. Is he in know of or can he recollect any instance of any act or articulation by services Chiefs which any sensible person can construe as defiance of civil authority? He surely cannot. Further, the ex-Servicemen should, if at all, be complimented for expressing their concerns and grievances, not only in democratic fashion but in a “dignified democratic fashion”. He, through his column, could have actually asked other interest groups and individuals to emulate them.
The whole episode so far, has been a classic case of the bureaucracy “subverting the democratic functioning of the state”; “undermining ‘informed – thus wise’ decision making by the Elected Govt”; and “Subverting the Public Opinion by Using/Misusing the Media”.
The facts and their sequence as brought out may be verified by those willing and an objective opinion may only be made thereafter. The provisions of the RTI Act would surely help uncover the criminal collusion and lengths to which the officials in the concerned Ministries have gone to, to ensure misrepresentation of issues, misleading their own Ministers (and thus the Govt) with the ill-intent of depriving legitimate dues to the Armed Forces personnel and undermining their status.
The bureaucracy, especially those associated with the Defence Ministry, during the past six decades, have found themselves not only increasingly incompetent but even unwilling to develop related competencies, to fulfill their assigned roles. As this episode clearly shows, the bureaucracy have instead, attempted to usurp the role of the Ministers (& thus the Govt) by assigning most of the “decision making” to themselves in the growing belief that in all cases of Ministerial interventions, they can effectively misrepresent facts and mislead the busy Ministers and further, that their acts of commission and omission will never be open to scrutiny of the Armed Forces. In the instant case, the concerned bureaucrats had not bargained for the Service Chiefs walking up the political masters which led to exposing of their nefarious designs and professional gross misconduct.
It is anybody’s guess that the current media campaign is the handiwork of the same very bureaucrats in a last ditch effort to scuttle the “Informed Decision Making Process by the Appointed GoM” and to “Cover Bureaucratic Misdeeds & Follies” by raising the bogey of “Armed Forces’ Defiance of the Govt Authority”.
Now, MoD lets down armed forces
Ajay Banerjee
Tribune News Service
http://www.tribuneindia.com/2008/20081102/main5.htm
The redesignation of appointment of SOI to DIRECTORby the MOD in MES was nothing more than change of nomencleture. The sanction letter clearrly stipulated that the change of nomenclture is without any change of duty. The arguement putforth by civil side was that appts called.as Staff Offr Grade I was not in tune withnature of job theu were doing . Therefore they wanted a fancy name. . . HENCE the Nomencleture OF DIRECTOR WAS BORN. So it was actually notjing but Ram being now called as Shyam. However it is different syory how they utilised yhis name to win parity with other srrvices.
All those who dont clear iit, medical , aieee entrance exams after class 12th run towards nda exam. It has become a kind of last resort for the castaways and same is true for them after finishing their trainings. They try to justify that they are doing service to the nation forgetting that even a clerk in some bank is doing the same.
They try to grab each and every corrupt opportunity to earn illegal income , having worked in CBI , I have come across hundreds of senior army officers who were arrested because of graft in cases related to food , clothing , equipments. Most of the army officers lobby to get postings in BRO ( because sucg a holy cow they are ). BRO , MES , Canteens are dens of corruption. Kickbacks are rule of life in these organisations. Just see the clothing provided to a jawan and you know it is a result of some corrupt army personnel's ambition for earning kickbacks.
Nobody forces a class 12th kid to go into armed forces and everyone takes the nda exam because they know it is the easiest of all, even the average student has chance of clearing that taking into account the test standard in comparison with IIT and AIEEE.
Anyway, the thing most people can identify an Army Officer is lack of humility and extra ordinary ego inculcated in them ( exact opposite of ever courteous airforce officers).
The last and most brainless argument that they are superior to their own countrymen is god knows result of what kind of racist education they are being given in their training. If you want to serve country where does the need arise to brag about superiority, fight for all unimaginable allowances, fight for scales over and above evryone. A doctor working in remote district among tribals is also serving the country as you people .
Anyhow I urge young recruits to not fall into the same ignominious category as their seniors . And those who lament IAS/ IPS as being superiors are most welcome to join those services and change them from within if they stupidly feel that all of them are corrupt and you can also clear because of "mugging". Noone has stopped you from saving country such people, isn't it?
Request see first judgment of Hon'blr SC of 1985.
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