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(May I again request readers not to indulge in personal attacks. Mr Datta is a respected journalist and just as I disagree with some facts in his article, he may have a different take on the issue. His article is a journalistic viewpoint, and I support his right to have his own opinion to the hilt. Let us be more accommodating and flexible. Sorry and Thanks)
Firstly, is it a mere coincidence that all that’s said against the defence establishment now emanates from ‘finance ministry sources’ ?
Saikat Datta has come up with a good one on the Military’s case for pay enhancement. I support Datta’s right to disagree with the services’ demands but I also feel tempted to address the factual errors so very prominently displayed by him.
After all the hullabaloo, this is what we needed – a supposed ‘Order of Precedence’ in a national magazine of repute which shows a Section Officer equal to a Major of the Army !. Yes, this is what is reproduced in the said article in Outlook. Click here for Page 1 of the Article and here for Page 2. So Mr Datta, what about Lieutenants and Captains, I’m sure if a Major is of the status of a Section officer, the ones who provided you with this ‘order of precedence’ would now want a Capt to be equated with an Upper Division Clerk (UDC) and Lieut with an LDC – that’s how the hierarchy below SO goes. And what about Subedar Major ? Oh, he’s a peon, alright. Now that would be really satisfying for some !!!
Well for starters, there is no such ‘order of precedence’ as reproduced in Saikat Datta’s article. Only the President’s Secretariat and the Ministry of Home Affairs are competent to deal with status and equivalence. The lone document that can be relied on is the official Order of Precedence (also known as Warrant of Precedence - WoP) last drastically amended in 1979 and issued by the President’s Secretariat. This WoP (amended till Oct 2007) clearly and unambiguously lays down the following equivalence :
Article 11 : Cabinet Secretary
Article 12 : Service Chiefs
Article 23 : Lt Generals (Army Commander equivalents) and Secretaries to Govt of India
Article 24 : Other Lt Generals
Article 25 : Additional Secretaries to Govt of India / Chief Secretaries of States outside their States.
Article 26 : Major Generals and Joint Secretaries to Govt of India
The current Central WoP is only till the rank of Major General. For ranks and posts below Maj Gen / JS to GoI, the old Warrant of 1937 is followed as per Govt of India instructions. The actual WoP down till the rank of Capt is available here.
Saikat Datta however reproduces a supposedly 1968 issued ‘Order of Precedence’ in his article which lists Army Commanders (GsOC-in-C) with Additional Secretaries, Major Generals with Joint Secretaries, Brigadiers with Deputy Secretaries, Colonels with Officiating Dy Secretaries (Needless to say, no such post exists), Lt Colonels with Under Secretaries and Majors with Section Officers. It is another story that the official number of said table or the legal sanctity of its issuing authority is not mentioned in the article. Can such a self created ‘Order of Precedence’ override the Order of Precedence issued by the President’s Secretariat. Here is a take on so called equivalence by the Army HQ, and here is the stand of the Home Ministry on equivalance. Tell me, what do you say about this Mr Datta ?. Tomorrow can the Army HQ also override the President’s warrant and locally issue a similar equivalence table showing a Capt equivalent to an Additional Secretary to Govt of India ?. Give us a break from this propaganda.
Alright let’s leave that aside, even the 6th CPC was not that cruel to the forces. The 6th CPC (and the Cabinet after due amendments) had articulated the following status and pay equivalence :-
1. Service Chiefs = Cabinet Secretary
2. Lt Gen (Army Commander) = Secretary to Govt of India (Apex Scale)
3. Lt Gen = Additional Secretary to Govt of India (Higher Adm Grade)
4. Maj Gen = Joint Secretary to Govt of India (Senior Adm Grade)
5. Brig = No equivalent in the Secretarial hierarchy but has now been equated with a DIG of IPS and Conservator of IFS.
6. Col = Director to Govt of India (Non-Functional Selection Grade)
7. Lt Col = Deputy Secretary to Govt of India (Junior Adm Grade)
8. Maj = Under Secretary to Govt of India (Senior Time Scale)
9. Capt = No equivalent
10. Lieut = Junior Time Scale
Of course a Section Officer finds mention in the 6th CPC report but sorry the said post has been equated with a Subedar of the Army. But maybe the 6th CPC got it all wrong and SOs should have been granted a Grade Pay of Rs 7600 in Pay Band-3 !!
The problem that the Services have with the 6th CPC hypothesized equivalence is that the rough pay equation of the 5th CPC and the one recommended by the Group of Officers (GOO) in 1999 has been disturbed. Till the 6th CPC came along, the pay equation was :-
Capt = Under Secretary to GoI, Maj = Dy Secretary to GoI, Lt Col = Director to GoI, Col = DIG of IPS, Brig = No equivalent, Maj Gen = Joint Secy to GoI, Lt Gen = Addl Secy to GoI, Lt Gen (Army Commander) = Secy to GoI, Service Chiefs = Cabinet Secy
Saikat Datta also gives a feeling as if the Cabinet Secretary and his team of Secretaries felt that the Services’ demand of maintenance of an edge by Regular Officers over those of the Military Nursing Services (MNS) was a big joke. Well it was not so Mr Datta. The final approval of the Cabinet would show that indeed the said demand has been accepted and MNS officers have been granted lower grade pays and status than regular commissioned officers. And let me also tell you that it is only in the Army (after the 6th CPC) that Nurses have been granted a Group-A (Class-I) status equal to other officers. On the civil side, Nurses are appointed on Group-C (Class-III) appointments.
While I hold MNS officers in high esteem, the Cabinet has not only perpetuated an anomaly by placing Lt Colonels in a lower pay band vis-à-vis their civilian counterparts, but another grave injustice has been committed closer at home, look at this :-
Lt Col of Regular Army
5th CPC Scale : Rs 15100-400-18700
6th CPC Scale : Pay Band-3 (Rs 15900-39100)
Colonel of Military Nursing Service
5th CPC Scale : Rs 13400-300-15500
6th CPC Scale : Pay Band- 4 (Rs 37400-67000)
How’s that for ‘specious arguments’, Mr Datta ??
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Mr Saikat Datta replies :
Dear Navdeep,
Hi. This is Saikat Datta.
I wrote the piece so I welcome your take on it. However, I have only reported what i have gathered.
I have done the same to highlight how the IAS has given themselves a lot more money then what was approved by the Cabinet! I wish you had read that article to get an idea of what i am trying to say in my pieces.
Here is the link to the same : http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081013&fname=IAS+Officers+%28F%29&sid=1
My point is that there is a growing intolerance to any opinion on any issue these days. And there is no leakage of any confidential information. Just highlighting some things in an alternative perspective. If you give me your email I am sure we can discuss this further. As regards the document that I have published (the 1968 document) this is something that was issued by the Ministry of Home Affairs on behalf of the cabinet secretariat. This was appended to a letter from a particular group of military officers in their representation to the pay commission.
In brief the point of the article was/is that by trying to drag down other services the army chief took the debate away from the legitimate demands of the three services for their men and officers. In fact I also state that the Navy Chief's representations as well as his signals were in the finest traditions of the services. However, mere rhetoric will not help us argue for parity, status or more money. It also needs some soul searching. Issues such as perks for senior officers by means of subsidised liquor, free rations, misuse of PBORs by making them wash clothes, swipe the floor etc. I have personally witnessed these above acts. Should Brigadiers and above be given such perks?. I have no answers but I would love to hear your views on the above.
Warm regards
Saikat
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126 comments:
Dear Navdeep,
The whole issue is becoming too disturbing and distressing. Its not what we bargained for when we joined the service and gave away 20 best years of our life. If this country does not deserve a military (thats what the Cabinet Secretary and his cronies are showing by planting and leaking all these stories) so it be. I think the time has come for the service officers to put up papers and leave. It also time to start a campaign so that the youngsters now joining armed forces are very clear as to what they are getting in.
We need another pay commission to undo the chaos created by lord sri krishna and chandrasekhar.
Hopeless state.
What all can our chiefs fight?
Every page of this pay commission is coming out with anomalies?
The state should recover all expenditure incurred on pay commission from these people.
Use mil int to find out what has transpired prior to this pay commission.
Dear Navdeep,
I am not an effected party and feel the same way as Ano 2:30 has written. I think I know and has great reagrds for him.
Is there no body in this Country to ask Chandrasekhar Ji how copies of letters written by two services Chiefs have been passed on to the Hindu?? If this not trecherious then what is it?
who does not know that Nurses are fourth class emplyees every where. It was to protest them aginst sexually hungery (obviously and true because of the Country and his conditions of Service) that they were made officers to strnthen their protecion. Now look who is championing their cause ??
This is becoming too much and highest bureaucrates of this country are indulging into meanest tricks at their disposal. It appers Chandrasekhar and Nath are badly shaken to fall to such pathetically low levels.
This is being very mean...Can the goverment take note of it please. Here the Para Military have become higher than Military and Para Medicos have superceded the Medics ??
That is disgusting....I think Chandra sekhar has not relented on the history of his being shunted away from MoD....
Poor boy....He should resign if he a little moral courage.
Now the extract from which the equivalance has been quoted by Saikat Datta is a CGDA document.
Over the last few days, we are seeing a large no of such equivalances touted by all and sundry. This is getting seriously offending.
I hope the chiefs dont get cowed down and remove these anomalies once and for all.
I saw this "learned" article. It was a hit job if ever I have seen one. I must say, I have been contemplating joining the TA, but this piece demoralised even me to a great extent. It was pure tripe. I wonder what the idea is. There is certainly a fifth column operating in India. What is the ultimate object? To lay the nation bare for anyone to maraud at will?
@anon 2.21pm
We must also find out as to how Mr Sakia got copy of letter from COAS to Cab Sec??Apparantly all senstive correspondance between Chiefs-MOD-Cab Sec-FM-All other Ministeries/Depts etc in GOI is freely available to all & sundry!!! unless Sakia got it via ISI!!The ISI link calls for an immidiate investigation. Since top bueaurcrats & Head Bobooz could be involved the investigation must be by a GOMs/Statuory Body.Foriegn hand in 6CPC is increasingly becoming evident.
It is time this useless cabinet secretary was given the Sack. He has played a dirty game with national security.
@aditya and others
There is a email floating around. dunno whether the contents are true. Read for yourselves.
Who owns the media in India?
Let us see the ownership of different media agencies.
NDTV: A very popular TV news media is funded by Gospels of Charity in Spain. Supports Communism. Recently it has developed a soft corner towards Pakistan because Pakistan President has allowed only this channel to be aired in Pakistan . Indian CEO Prannoy Roy is co-brother of Prakash Karat, General Secretary of the Communist party of India . His wife and Brinda Karat are sisters.
India Today which used to be the only national weekly which supported BJP is now bought by NDTV!! Since then the tone has changed drastically and turned into Hindu bashing.
CNN-IBN: This is 100 percent funded by Southern Baptist Church with its branches in all over the world with HQ in US.. The Church annually allocates $800 million for promotion of its channel. Its Indian head is Rajdeep Sardesai and his wife Sagarika Ghosh.
Times group list:
Times Of India, Mid-Day, Nav-Bharth Times, Stardust, Femina, Vijay Times, Vijaya Karnataka, Times now (24- hour news channel) and many more...
Times Group is owned by Bennet & Coleman. 'World Christian Council¢ does 80 percent of the Funding, and an Englishman and an Italian equally share balance 20 percent. The Italian Robertio Mindo is a close relative of Sonia Gandhi.
Star TV: It is run by an Australian, who is supported by St. Peters Pontifical Church Melbourne.
Hindustan Times: Owned by Birla Group, but hands have changed since Shobana Bhartiya took over. Presently it is working in Collaboration with Times Group.
The Hindu: English daily, started over 125 years has been recently taken over by Joshua Society, Berne , Switzerland .. N. Ram's wife is a Swiss national.
Indian Express: Divided into two groups. The Indian Express and new Indian Express (southern edition) ACTS Christian Ministries have major stake in the Indian Express and latter is still with the Indian counterpart.
Eeenadu: Still to date controlled by an Indian named Ramoji Rao.
Ramoji Rao is connected with film industry and owns a huge studio in Andhra Pradesh.
Andhra Jyothi: The Muslim party of Hyderabad known as MIM along with a Congress Minister has purchased this Telugu daily very recently.
The Statesman: It is controlled by Communist Party of India.
Kairali TV: It is controlled by Communist party of India (Marxist)
Mathrubhoomi: Leaders of Muslim League and Communist leaders have major investment.
Asian Age and Deccan Chronicle: Is owned by a Saudi Arabian Company with its chief Editor M.J. Akbar.
> > Gujarat riots which took place in 2002 where Hindus were burnt alive,
> > Rajdeep Sardesai and Bharkha Dutt working for NDTV at that time got around 5 Million Dollars from Saudi Arabia to cover only Muslim victims, which they did very faithfully. Not a single Hindu family was interviewed or shown on TV whose near and dear ones had been burnt alive, it is reported.
Tarun Tejpal of < Tehelka.com regularly gets blank cheques from Arab countries to target BJP and Hindus only, it is said.
The ownership explains the control of media in India by foreigners. The result is obvious.
PONDER OVER THIS. NOW YOU KNOW WHY EVERY ONE IS AGAINST TRUTH, HOW VERY SAD.
Please pass this on to as many as possible. Let them know who feeds them with biased news and information- yet call themselves secular
Dear Navdeep,
Great job! Keep it up. This campain unleased by the bureaucrats is getting unbearable. I was just wondering if it is possible to counter this campain through some other media like print / electronic with larger viewership. funds should not be a problem with all of us chippig in. Outlook should publish correction.
WE SHOULS SEEK APPOLOGIES FROM OUTLOOK FOR PUBLISHING INCORRECT INFORMATION...
WHAT THE HELL PRO ARMY IS DOING?
navdeep, kudos to you for coming out with the correct volleys for the maliced campaign by the babus. the service chiefs' have correctly taken up the issue for which i am sure all the armed forces soldiers will be grateful. ultimately only time will tell whether the govt has orphaned the services. i still feel proud when i sing/hear the national anthem and my head holds high with pride for all my soldiers who selflessly have devoted themselves to the service of my country, our country however as far as i am concerned come what may i shall never let my child join the forces which are controlled by spineless politicians and ungrateful bureaucrats. the only unfortunate thing is that the present doers will not be the sufferrers of their present doings.
As a matter of fact, shouldnt we rake up a storm about the leaking of sensitive internal defense documents in the interests of bureaucratic security? Why isnt anyone raising a halla about this? The service chiefs send out a perfectly legitimate signal to the troops and everyone is up in arms. The bureaucracy is leaking documents from the MoD, and noone cares?
Dear Navdeep,
Hi. This is Saikat Datta. I wrote the piece so I welcome your take on it. However, I have only reported what i have gathered. I have done the same to highlight how the IAS has given themselves a lot more money then what was approved by the Cabinet!
I wish you had read that article to get an idea of what i am trying to say in my pieces.
Here is the link to the same:
http://www.outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20081013&fname=IAS+Officers+%28F%29&sid=1
My point is that there is a growing intolerance to any opinion on any issue these days. And there is no leakage of any confidential information. Just highlighting some things in an alternative perspective. If you give me your email I am sure we can discuss this further.
As regards the document that I have published (the 1968 document) this is something that was issued by the Ministry of Home Affairs on behalf of the cabinet secretariat. This was appended to a letter from a particular group of military officers in their representation to the pay commission.
In brief the point of the article was/is that by trying to drag down other services the army chief took the debate away from the legitimate demands of the three services for their men and officers.
In fact I also state that the Navy Chief's representations as well as his signals were in the finest traditions of the services.
However, mere rhetoric will not help us argue for parity, status or more money. It also needs some soul searching. Issue such as perks for senior officers by means of subsidised liquor, free rations, misuse of PBORs by making them wash clothes, swipe the floor etc. I have been personally witnessed these above acts. Should Brigadiers and above be given such perks?
I have no answers but I would love to hear your views on the above.
warm regards
Saikat
Mr Saikat,
You have grossly overstated the idea of perks, the discussion is not on what one gets "un-authorised"or the do compare with what does these IAS chaps make off the record ? that is also not a secret now, is it?
So the Pay and Status are alone comprise the issue. Well let all these upgraded types be brought down, we dont mind at all.
And don't try to fend off the focus from the fact that sensitive documents from the defense ministry found their way into your hands, you need to be arrested forthwith. The leak stopped. Now we know how our enemies always come to know everything.
You are a traitor to my country- if you cannot expose who let you have these documents.
You need to answer that.
As for the other inaccuracies Navdeep has already answered on the blog.
Remember defense forces do not have officers from the reserved quotas, Their calibre is high and there is going to be some chewing of balls, soon.
Incidentally, keeping the uniform and weaponsof the officer in good shape (Clean, Ironed, and ready for wear), is an authorised function of the sahayak. I wonder how you can so blithely term it as misuse?
I wonder how a Demi-Official letter from the chief to the cab-sec can be considered as "not confidential"? I am almost certain it is covered under the OSA. Perhaps an investigation is required into this presentation?
Your ideals, I regret, seem to be typical of the liberal elite, which judges others, without wishing to step into their shoes.
Incidentally, to be fair, Mr. Datta, your piece on the IAS double increment was interesting. I wonder if you will do another piece on how IAS and IPS officers unauthorisedly (as opposed to army sahayaks who are an authorised facility), use official staff as cooks, cleaners, sweepers, washermen, maalis, and for sundry other such duties?
Dear Mr Saikat
I do get a feeling that the story is a plant by the IAS lobby & you are the sacpegoat since you thought it was a scoop & published your article with out verifying your facts
While we respect the MNS Officers, (who have nursing degree )how can they be equated with the Doctors who have MBBS.
I am sure when you go to the doctor you would like to be treated by the doctor & not by the nurse.
This was the issue being highlighted by Gen Deepak Kapoor & you call it as running down allied services.
The Armed Forces run om command & control & not on brotherly/sisterly relationships.
Any thing which infringes on this command & control element will be a diaster for the Armed forces.
Tomorrow some one will come out with even an idea that there is no requirement of Army act
I am sure the Pak army will be very happy to see how how Indians are subverting the Armed forces much better than ISI.
I wont be surprised if ISI even disbanded since they have people like you to do their work (& that too for free)
Mr Saikat Datta, in his comment above said and i quote "However, mere
rhetoric will not help us argue for parity, status or more money. It
also needs some soul searching. Issue such as perks for senior officers
by means of subsidised liquor, free rations, misuse of PBORs by making
them wash clothes, swipe the floor etc. I have been personally witnessed
these above acts. Should Brigadiers and above be given such perks?
" unquote........
so that makes his eligible to vent on countless other officers and men.
already he is shaking in his pants by trying to cajole navddeep into a
private email based discussion, having made a ass of himself and that to
by publishing such an uninformed article in a publication of national
repute
what is mr saikats editor doing.....what about journalistic ethos of
verifying facts before publishing...i am amazed at the poor quality of
editorship at such important opinion making journal
as for you mr saikat....i am sure you will live to rue your missive
roundly
be a man a publicly own up this disservice to the nation and to stop
being labled a "contrived journalist".....i do thing your creditentials
need to be revoked by the press council of india
jai hind
@All
May I request again to keep the discussion civilized.
No personal comments on Saikat Datta shall be allowed to be posted, the same will be deleted from now on.
Just like I did, he too has a right to disagree and have his own take on the issue.
Comments like calling him a 'traitor' show the defence community in a very poor light.
Dear Mr Saikat
Are you aware that there are actually trades called Safaiwala,Dhobi,Barber,Cook,Waiter,masalchi,cobbler etc in the Army for doing their repsective trade work
I do not claim that every thing is hunky dory in the services.
How ever the Services have been brought down by ignorant people who do not have sufficient knowledge & please do not add yourself to the list
Please also realise that if the perks are so good why are officers leaving the services.
I myself took voluntary retirement so that my son could get value education
Dear Mr Saikat Datta,
1. It was quite painful and agonising having gone through your article which I am sure was published without any proper research on the subject. I am sure there would be many more like me. I am sure that such unethical practices do not augur well specially for a magazine of repute. Would you please apologise for publishing incorrect statements about the defence forces without knowning the ethos. I am sure an immediate unconditional apology from your side would do well to reduce the fire that has begun due to learned article of yours.
@ My dear Datta.....
You have a right to disagree...but u r also requested to read Maj Navdeep's Post..i m sure..with slight application of wisdom and intelligence you will realise that what you are trying to say is weak logically..as a media man perhaps you should have gone into the details of core issues..instead of beating the bush or publishing certain letters...TELL ME HAVE U CALCULATED THE INCREASE IN PAY FOR ALL THOSE WHO WERE AT 14300/ BASIC AND NOW AT 37400/-...THE INCR IS AGAINST THE APPROVED RATIO OF 1.86..IT WORKS OUT TO BE 2.6 APPROX..AND SO MANY I CAN WRITE PAGES ON IT..MY REQUEST IS PLEASE DO A DETAIL INVESTIGATION CONSULT SOME ARMY OFFRS UNDERSTAND THE ISSUE THEN COME OUT WITH SOMETHING LOGICAL....
THAT WILL BE GOOD TO SEE BY ALL OF US...
REMEMBER HALF TRUTHS ARE MORE DANGEROUS....
REST U R A MATURE MAN WITH SUFFICIENT IQ AND INTELLIGENCE..MAY GOD BLESS U
Dear Mr Datta
See the following article about 12 CRPF jawans getting killed
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Maoists_kill_12_CRPF_personnel_in_Chhattisgarh/articleshow/3619437.cms
Have you ever asked a question why so many PMF jawans get killed with out a correpsonding casualty from their officer cadre
Most of them get killed because they are not led by their officers unlik like the armed forces where the officers are always in the front.
dear mr dutta
let us all join hands to save the future of this country.without strong and highly motivated armed forces no country can survive.our forces are one of the finest in the world thanx to the leadership provided by its offrs.i can assure u that there would be lot of fratricides in the joint ops with cpmf if this parity is not restored. it will be too late by then. please study little more on the ethos of armed forces. they work for the ijjat of the nation. if they loose their own. well that's the end of it. u will see an end to the armed forces within next 3-5 years.let me tell u my elder brothers son was highly motivated to join NDA. Today he is with me saying' no way''. i was really shocked. raj thakrey is out on streets threatening every one. old faujis protesting peacefully have been arrested today. i dread the day when armed forces personnel would make such groups and start patrolling the streets and take on every one whose name figures in the list of corrupt and gundagardy. it will only be in order . after all who will ensure that the enemies within are also taken care of.
Maj Navdeep ; A very nice article on the facts of the case
PMFs jawans do a great job by fighting without a leader but eventually get killed bcoz the wise IPS cadre never faces bullet in action!In the future joint ops they cannot win bcoz military jawans are as good as their officers are who lead and guide the ops. Remember a herd of SHEEP led by a Lion always beats a herd of LION led by a Sheep and this is proven time and again in the war.
And by the way Mr. Dutta have you ever heard the saying,"Ghar ka bhedi lanka dhaaye."
Dear Navdeep,
Exactly what one has come to expect from you-a logical and well argued rebuttal.
I am however concerned by the ugly turn that this whole issue has taken. One has read all kinds of comments which frankly are in less than good taste. It seems to me-and I hope that I am wrong- that some how the civilian establishment has now decided to use disinformation in its campaign as well.
My only comment to all those people who feel that the Services types are getting compensated rather well is to ask them whether they have sent any of their progeny in the armed forces? If not, then it is time they put their mouth where their money is!
As regards status, one only has to look at the fact that all over the world, in monarchies, either the monarch himself or the Crown Prince joins the Armed forces of that country. If one thinks that the Monarch would join an organisation that comes so low on the pecking scale, then one needs to have one's head examined!
All these tables being bandied about are the creation of the civilian bureaucrats who want to be superior to everyone else and use all tricks in and outside the book. Sadly, the tables quoted by Mr. Datta regrettably fall in the category of tricks!
@All.
Sermons,opinions,comments all over,but No one says what a fauzi should do when he so strongly feels wronged.
@ Col Venkat
"I wont be surprised if ISI even disbanded since they have people like you to do their work (& that too for free)"
How does anybody know that that was done for free?
Dear Mr Saikat Datta,
The following is a suggestion by Maj Gen Surjeet Singh (Retd).
If you could, please do a favour of posting this as a post script for your article.
"It is customary for the service chiefs and their senior colleagues to visit military stations and address officers on the nuances of the pay package granted by the government after every pay commission. This time, the logic of the report of the commission appears to be so complex and convoluted that it is beyond the comprehension of the best amongst us. It is, therefore, suggested that the honorable members of the Pay Panel be requested to go to a few selected field units and let the soldiers receive the benefit of their wisdom and sagacity, first hand."
Anon @ 9:52
F*** yourself. Remember the Academy saying, "when rape is inevitable why not enjoy it"!
No one should call mr Datta a traitor.
Maj Navdeep should you have pub something akin to a DO letter of the chiefs, you would be fighting your case from jail. But this guy cant be touched.
Of course he has a greater calling.
My clerk give away the name of his commanding officer on a closed circuit military telephone and he gets rigorous Imprisonment for 14 days in the unit quarter guard but this guy, Datta, is purely doing a JOB!...no he is what shall we call him a facilitator? of ISI...oops...sorry. IAS....?
And his (Mr Datta) research and arguments! wow outlook has gone intellectually bankrupt!
Does mr Datta have even the gumption to read these replies?
Sad.
Very Sad indeed!
@Annon 10.03pm
I think I know you sunny.
How is your mom doing?
Intimate her well being,I am worried.
Why you people crying hoarse on Saikat's article.
Who read this congress mouthpiece?
Tell him to go and hop.
Further to anon above
An important part of our ability to enjoy the vagaries of military life is the ready sense to laugh at ourselves. So here's something to dissipate some of the anger. It has been floating in cyberspace for some time now.
"Due to the current financial situation the Armed Forces has decided to a scheme for employees over 40 years of age to proceed on early retirement. This scheme will be known as RAPE (Retire Aged People Early).Persons selected to be RAPED can apply to their HQ to be eligible for the SHAFT scheme (Special Help After Termination). Persons who have been RAPED, once SHAFTED will be reviewed under the SCREW scheme (Scheme Covering Early Retired Workers). Person may be RAPED once, SHAFTED twice and SCREWED as many times as HQs deems appropriate. Persons who have been RAPED can only gets AIDS (Additional Income for Dependants or Spouse) or HERPES (Half Earnings of Retired Personnel Early Severance). Obviously persons who have AIDS or HERPES will not be SHAFTED or SCREWED any further by the HQ. Persons staying on will receive as much SHIT (Special High Intensity Training) as possible. The Armed Forces has always prided itself on the amount of SHIT it gives its employees. Should you feel that you do not receive enough SHIT, please bring it to the attention of your Superiors. They have been trained to give you all the SHIT you can handle."
@ Saikat
One need not read confusing logic of, and comparing bureaucratic language in, govt notifications to figure out that the status of Commissioned Officers is being lowered in India.
The sad fact is that the children of upper classes, business houses, civil servants, legislators, political leaders are conspicuous by their near total absence among the young commissioned officers of today. Further, that such absence is rarely expressed as a concern in public space.
The media are equally guilty (although there are many ‘forces’ brats’ among us). Simply put, we are eager to discuss them, eulogise and criticise them, but not send our children to lead the peasantry into battle.
Have we isolated our armed forces officers? Or are they now, truly, a republican army of the ‘other’ classes paid and compensated handsomely to die for us? Our very own foreign legion!
This is no way to become a superpower. We have to put our money where our mouth is.
Anomalies in armed forces pay revision
C. Uday Bhaskar
The United Progressive Alliance government’s veteran fire-fighter, Pranab Mukherjee, will now pull yet another chestnut out of the fire — this time as the head of a three-member ministerial panel — to resolve the simmering discontent over the glaring anomalies in the pay structure for the armed forces based on the recommendations of the Sixth Central Pay Commission (SCPC). This unfortunate saga of purported bureaucratic perfidy and political indifference reached a tipping point when the armed forces chose to defer the implementation of the SCPC award, pending resolution of their plea for redress.
Unfortunately, this rather Gandhian approach was reportedly perceived as an instance of breach of discipline and it was alleged that the Defence Minister indicted the Chief of the Naval Staff for “uncharacteristic plain-speaking.” It was added that the three Service chiefs were told that “the armed forces cannot unilaterally decide not to implement a Union Cabinet decision and that there was no way the UPA government would let them get away with it.” The veracity of these reports has been questioned, but in the absence of a clear rebuttal by the government, doubts persist about the nature of the Minister-chiefs relationship.
Against this backdrop and the history of the delicate political-military relationship in India over the last 60 years, which includes the Krishna Menon-Thimmayya ignominy and the Rodrigues fracas, the Service chiefs have to maintain a fine balance in their public articulations. The military top brass in India has to ensure that even by default they are not perceived to question or defy a political directive — however justified and legitimate the case may be. Perception, alas, is critical in such times when aggressive and shrill television coverage raises the most innocuous issue into “breaking news.” The general sense is that the military is resorting to trade union tactics to obtain redress. Thus, on the face of it, the manner in which the chiefs issued signals could be deemed ‘inadvisable’ — since it appeared that the armed forces had refused to implement a Cabinet decision.
This is a serious turn of events and points to an undesirable politico-military stand-off with grave implications for national security and cohesion. However, this is an exigency that need not have arisen in the first place had the affable Defence Minister received the kind of objective advice that he ought to have from his senior bureaucracy.
Soon after the SCPC recommendations were announced in March, various anomalies were pointed out by different departments including the allied services, academia, the police and the military, amongst others. And the bureaucracy was given the complex and challenging job of fine-tuning the report.
Regrettably, the recommendations of the bureaucracy, as represented by the Committee of Secretaries that was constituted to harmonise the SCPC, selectively distorted the final pay scales to the detriment of the armed forces in relation to the paramilitary forces. These distortions at the Lieutenant Colonel and equivalent level have immediate operational implications and these were brought to the notice of the Ministry of Defence in late-August. But from the pattern of events it is evident that the Defence Minister was not apprised of the enormity of the bureaucratic insensitivity. Why the Committee of Secretaries came to this decision is intriguing and merits scrutiny at the highest political level.
In 1979, India faced a mini-revolt by the paramilitary forces. The Indian Army — the ultimate symbol of the state — was called out to quell the incident. At that time, the Government of India drew up norms wherein it was accepted that the police, the paramilitary forces and the army would form an inter-cadre but non-linearly linked hierarchy with the military as the lead service. This was necessary due to the multiple and complex requirements of internal security where the army, and on occasion the navy, have to work with their paramilitary and police counterparts. For some inexplicable reason, this norm appears to have been jettisoned by the bureaucracy.
At the core of the current stand-off is a sense of disquiet and anguish within the military that the civilian bureaucracy has perfected the ‘Yes Minister’ syndrome and deliberately misled the political apex about the nature of the military’s plea for redress. More than actual pay, the Indian military is alarmed over the manner in which it has been progressively down-graded institutionally.
The inter-cadre implication of this revision of pay bands is that a Commandant of the Border Security Force and the Coast Guard who till now was deemed to be junior to a Lt. Colonel and a Naval Commander — they wear similar rank badges — will not only receive a much higher pay but will have legitimate reason to consider himself to be senior to his military counterparts. The current operational directives to the Indian military envisage that the three armed forces of the nation are the lead services and that in times of war, the paramilitary and the Coast Guard will function under the unified command of the military.
The SCPC anomalies will distort this carefully arrived-at inter-cadre hierarchy. And, given the ongoing low-intensity conflict and the operational tasking of the Indian Army, the BSF and the Central Reserve Police Force in internal security, serious operational imbalances will invariably occur. Furthermore, personnel below officer rank (PBOR) who were given a certain index towards pension benefits to retire at a relatively early age of 35 to 45 years, now have this modest advantage withdrawn. The SCPC recommended that they be inducted laterally into government service and that hence the weightage of early retirement be reduced. But the final recommendations reduced the pension benefits even without there being any policy decision to induct laterally ex-military personnel into government jobs.
Recently, while delivering the Field Marshal Cariappa Memorial Lecture, Finance Minister P. Chidambaram paid a rare but handsome tribute to the departed soldier and noted that India owed a debt of gratitude to the military for its professionalism and apolitical orientation which had enabled the nurturing of India’s robust democracy. The Indian military has always upheld the principle of civilian supremacy in a democracy — the civilian being the elected representative. And this is as it should be. However, the denigration of the military, as was noted during the V.K. Krishna Menon years, is fraught with grave dangers for national well-being, as recent Indian military history testifies.
Prime Minister Manmohan Singh will address the Combined Commanders on November 1. There he must assuage the bruised sensitivities of the Indian military while upholding the principle of civilian political supremacy. More than pay and allowances, it is the ‘izzat’ of the ‘fauj’ that is being sullied. This warrants redress without recrimination. The delicate politico-military harmony should be restored.
India is on the cusp of emerging as a major power. Weakening the sinews of its military by denigrating the chiefs is ill-advised when the nature of the security challenges is becoming more complex. The current ministerial panel brings together the most sagacious members of the UPA, and they could use this ostensible breach of discipline as an opportunity to initiate a holistic review of the Indian military and its future orientation. Setting up an Armed Forces Commission would be a highly desirable political initiative in this context.
@Abhi
@All who have commented on the confidentiality of communication quoted by Saikat Datta
I feel tempted to clarify that the info quoted by Saikat Datta can in no way be deemed confidential or under the purview of the Official Secrets Act etc. This is the age of information and the era of RTI Act. Any action by a public servant - whether it is writing a letter or any official noting - is open to the public under the RTI Act. So the unfolding of what went on behind the scenes is no crime.
My objection to Saikat Datta's article is limited to the fake order of precedence (Of course Datta cannot be blamed for creating it - it was being circulated earlier too by some vested interests) and the issue of MNS Officers.
Let us counter him with logic instead of rhetoric.
@ Anony - C Uday Bhaskar
This article by a retired Commodore shows us for what we are worth.
"The general sense is that the military is resorting to trade union tactics to obtain redress. Thus, on the face of it, the manner in which the chiefs issued signals could be deemed ‘inadvisable’ — since it appeared that the armed forces had refused to implement a Cabinet decision."
This is what we are saying, from one of us. With friends like this 'disciplined' veteran, who needs enemies!!
I am leaving for office rt now,
But Navdeep, had Saikat got the info on the net...through RTI...i can overlook it but, like I said LEAK OF THE CORRES BETWEEN THE CHIEFS AND DEF MINISTRY is no trifle matter to be consumed for the desire of openness.
Many have been killed in our profession. And we are therefore not easily going to allow such gross acts.
So now our mil plans should also be available on the net! God ISI must be having a field day with this new found openness!
RTI???
Get the minutes of the Army Cdrs Conf live as it happens next!
Chalo ill see you later....
I dont agree with you. Find out if it was legit source of info....then leave saikat datta. If it was just taken...get him in front of a court marshal.
like I said divulging a CO's name gets jail and this??? RTI?
@ Rohit on Who own which Media
A wonderful input. Thanks for the info. Now atleast we can take what they dish out with a pinch of salt!
My Dear Naveep, Dutta and Other Brothers,
I have been a dedicated reader and admirer of the "Outlook" as a magazine, its standards and its commitments to the society and Nation.
But for a few exceptions, the magazine also has had the highest reputation and standards on "Defense Reporting" producing some observant and well thinking people like Manoj Joshi who was also an adviser on Th CPC panel (albiet with out any good effect).
Notwithstanding this, there also have been numerous examples when this very good outfit of the "Outlook" was also sabotaged and misused by other organizations and stories planted. Dutta and Outlook would do well to remember how Krishna Swamy was bought and used by IB and IPS Goons against "operation SURP VINASH" and Gen Hardy Lidder.
On detection of a large No of terrorists being in the Interior of Rajouri and Punch District and the fact that they were entrenched there for many years, the Intelligence Agencies came under fire. Romeo Force launched "OP SHARP VINASH" under Gen Hardev Singh Lidder, a very fine and really hardy Commando and the area was largly cleared. "Outlook" in defense of the "Intelligence Community" launched a jouralistic campaign saying that there was no such concentration and entrenchment of terrorist there.
However, those reporting by Swami had some journalistic standards in spite of he being provided all confidential documents by the Intelligence agencies (intelligence reports mind you).
It sad to say, Mr Datta, that your report for the first time lacks in content, form, facts and analysis. It appears to have been lifted straight away from some UDC's desk in Ministry of Finance. You have freedom of thought and expression but being associated with "Outlook" demands some journalistic standards which your reports have lowered.
Firstly, Mr Datta you should have seen how and where the Government of India employs the Nurses, what is the pay given to them and what is their status. We are all Govt enployees. Then you should have compared the status of Nurses in the Armed Forces with other nurses.
You could have done well to see that:
* more than 70 percent of them hail from Kerala and the issue was first raked up by "Malyalam Manorama". THE ISSUE WILL BE CLOSE TO THE HEART OF MR ANTONY AND YOU ARE BY YOUR RPORT TRYING TO PLAY ANTONY V ARMY CHIEF.
* Had you asked some sensible fellow in any Army Hospitals, he would have told you that highest indiscipline rate in the Armed Forces is amongst MANS. They do not have forward line field or ship duties, still their desertion (running away) rate is alarming.
* Having trained at the expenses of Government expenses they all land up NURSING some Seikh in Arab Country Hospitals. See the records for yourself.
* Thy were always kept below officers and above PBOR as a "typical discipline requirement" and not because they deserve to be there as per Govt of India standards. This is not being against a service but a matter of fact and functional necessity.
* A trained noncommissioned graduate teacher (TGT) in the Army is a Havildar. A trained graduate Religious Teacher is a Naib Subedar. That is what the actual status of Nursing officers should be.
* The women commissioned in the Armed Forces as officers have equivalent or more qualification and merits than MNS. When, She is not awarded higher status and rank then why this vestige called MNS should be treated five steps up their actual "Govt of India " position for Nurses.
* There should be a complete review and they should be brought down to Havildars ranks. Armed forces should no longer suffer from "Fair Sex" syndrome as we have opened the door for Fair Sex now. Armed Forces can not discrimante between "females" of one categories as compared to MNS.
* Compare two Females in the Army. One is a Medical specialist and another is a Nurse. One gets all advantages of being a "woman" as the other being a doctor is treated at par with male colleagues. Waht is this?? will Cab Secy award Female Doctors "five Steps up" status?
Whose case are you fighting Mr Dutta.
The documents you have access to have not perhaps been received through RTI. Then in the name of freedom of Expression, Right to know etc it may be justified. Those who stand maligned, however have the right to ask for the head of the Custodian of those documents.It is the decision of the RTI Official to decided what is Confidential and what can be made public. It is not for the Cab Secy of Secretary Expenditure to decide what has to be made public.
Mr Dutta:
* THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO PUT THE ARMY CHAIF AGIST THE HONORABLE DEFENCE MINISTER. A SINISTER DESIGN AND IN FOR THE GOOD OF THIS COUNTRY. THIS OLD IAS TRICH PLAYED THROUGH YOU.
* This is an attempt to side track main issue.
* This amounts to "planted" and "paid" reporting. You have the right of reporting. I have right to "assess" and "judge" your reporting. We both have rights.Ok..so no offense meant.
* Your report is meant to demoralize, divide and mislead. It is neither factually correct. It neither informs nor educates. It agitates and creates further problems. It is a diversionary attack" as fauzies would call.
* If a journalist does not know who are the "authorized" people to lay down equivalence or precedence and you inform your readers the Plato was Karl Marx, you better attend some course on Journalism.
Every thing is all right till intentions are all right. Actually your "piece" does not deserve any replies but considering your intentions as fine, I must say some Bureaucrat has taken you for a ride. You stand harmed badly as they say " Badh Achha Badnaam Bura".
I MUST SAY YOU HAVE BROUGHT DISREPUTE TO HINDU GROUP.
All the best.
Jai Hind.
THIS IS AN ATTEMPT TO PUT THE ARMY CHAIF AGANST THE HONORABLE DEFENCE MINISTER. A SINISTER DESIGN AND NOT FOR THE GOOD OF THIS COUNTRY. THIS IS OLD IAS TRICK PLAYED THROUGH YOU. GOD BLESS THIS COUNTRY IF CAB SECY, EXPENDITURE SECRETARY AND RESPONSIBLE MEDIA STOOP SO LOW AND PLAY THIS DIRTY POLITICS.
HONORABLE PM SIR, MEMEBER PALIAMENT, PLEASE SIT UP !!
Dear Navdeep,
Well any article which goes against taste of Army becomes target particularly LTCols.Unfortunitaly non of the views given by the officers speaks more than faulty language,is it that they have little knowledge of regulations of other services.
On one hand you state LTCols should be given PB4 as they are no less than Director in IAS on other side one service chief calls BSF /Coast guard as inferior service and you agree with that .I assume so as there is no comments from your side in the entire writeup.
Tell me can a custom supptd who is on the pay band PB2 be equated with Col/Capt(IN) as both wears 4 stripes, well that is stated in service head letter, that COAST GUARD Commandants wears 3 stripes so same is equivalent to Commander of Indian Navy.Please go through the site of CG there are two types of Commandants.Commandant(Junior Grade)wears 3 stripes and is in PB3(OLD SCALE-12000-16500)and second commandant wears 3 stripes with collar tabs.Well if we checks further the DIG Wears 4Stripes as same is likely to be in command of ship where captain wear always 4stripes.It is for the information of all that even Commodore in Navy wears 4stripes when in command of ship.It took me time to get this information but same can be done other officers.JUST WRITING MEDICS AND PARAMEDICS will not fetch any thing.Anyhow best of luck for all LTCols in PB3 or PB4.
At least one must ask Mr. Dutta what the conditions of Matrons and nurses in civil government hospitals is? Are they given the same status and salary as physicians and surgeons? I think not. They are all in Group B posts. What about that?
@BP Singh
"On one hand you state LTCols should be given PB4 as they are no less than Director in IAS on other side one service chief calls BSF /Coast guard as inferior service and you agree with that "
I do NOT agree with any service as being superior or inferior. My blog post only deals with two aspects of the Outlook article - one, the status of MNS officers and two, the fake order of precedence. Please do not assume.
"Well if we check further the DIG Wears 4 Stripes as same is likely to be in command of ship where captain wears always 4 stripes.It is for the information of all that even Commodore in Navy wears 4stripes when in command of ship"
A Commodore is reverted to Capt rank when he is in Command of a Ship. A DIG with four stripes reports to Capt (IN) for your kind information. Yes, I agree with you that rank badges/stripes should not be compared to come to a conclusion of status. And that is the reason why I say that CPMF Comdts should not compare themselves with Cols and DIGs with Brigs only because they happened to copy military ranks. Next the bureaucracy would say that the Ticket Checker in Shatabdi express is equivalent to Wing COmmander of the IAF or Cdr of the IN just because all wear three full stripes on their shoulders. Does it make sense ???
The question which should be asked is not whether Army nurses should be given a higher scale, but whether civilian nurses should. Case in point, I will post a link to an ad for a post of "Nursing Superintendent" at a MOHFW, Government of India hospital.
http://lrsitbrd.nic.in/no_vacancy.htm
Observe please, that the payscale is 8000-13500, however, to reach this post, one must have served several years prior as a Deputy nursing superintendent (6500-10000), and before that, as a Assistant Nursing Superintendent, both Group "B" and lower posts. They are not even given officer rank. You will note, that the maximum age to reach even this minimum group A rank is whopping 56years. Dyou think any of them ever attains a rank equivalent to Major General (The head of the MNS is a Maj. Gen.)?
Mr. Dutta, sir, wouldnt you agree, then, that MNS officers have it much better than their civil counterparts?
They are commissioned officers. They are given timescale promotions. Rations. Officers messes. Rank and privileges. Officers institutes. I really do think you must concede they are better off than their sisters in the civil govt medical departments!
Have you ever heard of even a private hospital which pays its nurses as much as its physicians?
Dear BP Singh,
I have not read your article but support most of your contention.
The idea is simple and clear that Armed Forces, Police and Para Military forces must have defined roles and functional relationship when they work together.
That was decided much earlier and can function well. The functional arrangement is that when ever these elements will function together, the command as also the responsibilities will be that of the Army. Mind you, responsibility and command go together. What has neccessited change in the functional relatioship suddenly. Those who can not answer have no right to be there of Committee of Secretaries.
I shall give you an example. Pakistan IB is with BSF and they have command and responsibility. But in dire needs if Army is required to be employed both will shift to Army. What is wrong with that.Army has been called in means it has gone beyond roles of BSF. Similarily in "Aid to Civil Authorities", a megistrates hands over the situation to the Armed Forces and even if he is a first class megistrate can not command it. And also can not abondon the situation. He continues to remain part of the situation. And when ever the situation is restored then it is handed over to the Magistarte. Armed Forces do not function under any one except the Union Govt. However, for CPOs the legal position is different.
This is not an ego issue. Army never had any and has worked very harmoniously with Coast Guard or even CRPF.
The problem arose or was created by the IPS. They neither want to function with the Army nor under them nor under CPO cadre. Since HQ DIG is the lowest level where IPS get posted, MHA always refused to place HQ DIG under Army. This has created many grave operational problems in many areas.
If one company of Army is required to function with a BSF battalion the Command will rest with BSF and vice versa with overall command of Army. There are many areas where two or more BSF Battalions will function in a sector. Why can not these Battalions serve under their DIG with DIG HQ being under Army. That is good functional arrangements. But IPS has ego which is above the National Interest. There have been many ministerial deliberations on this issue, but IAS and IPS always scuttled it.
How can IAS and IPS even in dream think of working under an Army Boss.That will be their "Dharma Bhrasta" The idea is unthinkable for them and they can bargain even National Interests for it. That is the real issue and matters of fact.
I assure you Army or Navy has had never any thing against you. They are simply saying that they have been downgraded. I think if any one understands the CPOs any where in the Country its the Armed Forces and vice versa. This rift being vreated now is deliberate act of IAS / IPS as that is the only thing they know and nothing positive.
Do not take umbrage to words like Medics and Para Medics. BUT the fact remains that Armed Forces have different roles and tasks. You can not compare yourselves with fighter pilots, deep sea divers, submariners and Gunners and tank men, missle operators and even Infantrymen etc. Overall Armed Forces are different than PMF. No one can deny that.
Can an CRPF or PMF officer command a combined arms assault or operation? the answer is simply No. Can an Army officer command HQ DIG and do riot contol. The Answer simply is yes.
We share each others difficulties and each others problem. To my mind Armed Forces never acted against CPO interest. Your IPS bosses always and every where did.
Between the acting of a dreadful thing
And the first motion, all the interim is
Like a phantasma, or a hideous dream:
The genius and the mortal instruments
Are then in council; and the state of man,
Like to a little kingdom, suffers then
The nature of an insurrection.
"Julius Caesar" (2.1.69-75)
@Abhi 08.09am
I agree with you.
It is now evident that sensitive/classified military correspondance/information between the Sevice HQs & various Ministeries/Depts of GOI is deliberatly being leaked..It is a grave issue for National Security. Apparantly foriegn int agencies,particularly the ISI, are having a field day in New Delhi.This must be countered forthwith with all available means at our disposal.Saikat has unwittingly provided a lead & his interrogation should unfold the links & nexus.Involvement of Top Baboos must not deter a thorough investigation & follow up damage control by all concerned.While curruption by baboos of taking bribes/commission/cuts etc may be condoned,fifth coloumn activities jeopardising National Security must attract max punishment.
@COL VTV
12CRPF jawans killed......
Dear PMF Brothers,
If 12 jawans of Army had been killed in similar manner,all higher ups in chain of command the colonal,the brigadier & even major general would have been sacked & condemned for rest of thier carreer.Not so in CRPF where perhaps the platoon commander & some SI etc will be blamed & absolutely nothing will happen to the IPS boses directly responsible for the tragedy due to faulty planning & execution!!!That's the differerce between the Army &PMF.
Dear Saikat Dutta,
It appears from your arguments that you have just no idea of what Compensation is all about how is it worked out and what are the parameters.It would better had you consulted you HR manger a little and asked him how your compensation and incentives are decided.
At least you could have glanced through the 5th and 6th CPC reports and seen the arguments of the CPC in grating certain facilities to troops and officers.
The compensation are granted for "services rendered" degree of "difficulties" and "service Conditions". The government philosophies of compensation and wages in the country are expressed in various legislations and reports of Labour Commission.
Every where the "maintenance" of the worker at certain standard of living and certain Physical and mental Laval is necessary to take out desired work from him. Soldiers and officers of the Armed Forces are provided "compensations" and "facilities" to Maritain them to be able to fight at the "optimum level" of physical, mental and trained skilled levels.
For example under Factories Act, one labor gets "one day for every twenty days of work performed" plus one day per week. For a year, this works out to be 52 days (one day per week) and another 20 days (one day for every 20 days work). This leave system is when there is eight hours work per day. Total works out to be about 60 plus twenty. That is the leave the Government grants to officers.
For soldier and officers it is not eight hours but 24 hours a day under field conditions and minimum 16 hours a day under piece conditions. when you send someone to Ladakh and he is not able to trade on stock market or do private tuitions he is under govt job.That means that as per factories Act, he should be given Leave of 240 days or minimum 160 days in a year. But soldiers get 90 days and officers 80 days. There is no incentive, facility extra consideration in this. It is in fact the govt of India which violating its own laws and exploiting the soldiers. Do you call this concession??
A soldier is required to serve 2 to 2 1/2 years in Field and same period is given to him in peace to "maintain". Since govt is unable to provide 100 percent accommodation to the families, they are forces to stay together without them. When the Government is forcing condones on soldiers, they are provided rations even in peace. Ration is for "maintenance" and not a larges. we have Up to Corps HQs in fields areas. All are fed by the Govt in field ares. Corps is commanded by a Lt Gen and he is also fed by the govt in the Field. When he comes to peace it is for his maintenance and Fiels"s services rendered that he is given Free ration. Now only COAS is left out along with Army Cdrs in their last three - four years of service. He should be stopped Free ration as punishment of 38 years of exemplary Military service.
What mean guys you all are. You write what Bureaucrats say and feed you. You act as paid agents and write without application of mind.
Mr Dutta do you know what is rate of rations per day. It is Rs 32. Now by giving Rs 32 per day to a general as ration you want him to behave like your servant and slave. You have some sense of arguments MR Dutta.
These bureaucrats themselves are most ill informed, prejudiced, and egocentric power seekers. If you open the cane of "compensation" to the Armed Forces, it would be buggers muddle. You know this govt is maintaining the Armed Forces at a scale that was laid down during the second world war??
You mean to say we have not progressed economically since then. Where are the fundamental principles of "raising and maintainace of standards of Life" gone. After all those principles were enunciated by the Govt's labor Commission under Constitution of India. I ask you Mr Dutta if your family survives on rations scale and quality that your ancestors had in 1947. But Armed Forces are fed that by this country and its billionaire Bureaucrats.
Shit man Datta ! this is subjugation and slavery man. Guys like you think that you are doing great job without knowing you are opening the rotten smelly wound.
If you have any moral Courage carry this story know. Ask labor Commission of India to determine "compensation" for the Armed Forces. But there also you will find another IAS Babu farting on the Chair.
You need to learn basics of the theory of wages and Compensation before writting about it.
First go learn something before claiming yourseld to be journalist. Or you will reamin a "hired" journalist only. There is no place for that kind of journalists in todyas open environment where evry Citizen is internet Journalist.
Hahahahahahaha....
Take this positively...
@ all..........
why r we begging..?
y r v becoming bloodpressure patient waiting for justice..
law of the jungle...
jiski lathi uski bhains...
By now army must learn that they can not win with Bureaucrats. There is problem in thinking of the Armed Forces leadership. Just read the 12 report on Armed Forces Medical Services and reply to it available on LOKSABHA website (Defence comittee report. The DGAFMS was recommonded to Secretray grade by MOD, Parliamen comittee headed by Mr Vikhae patil but strongly oppose by three chiefs. Thanks to sixth pay commission DGAFMS got the Sec grade equivalent to his Civil counterpart Director General Health Services Ministry of Health Gov of India. If they have it they will even stop NPA to Army doctors
I mean Army leadeship against NPA.
I do not know whether to pity Saikat Datta or his lack of perception.
It is unfortunate that a document is produced in the Press ONLY when the Armed Forces are appealing to the Govt to correct anomalies.
MNS Officers are not commissioned officers. Their rank badges are to distinguish them from the medical attendents etc. They cannot be equated with doctors because they do not either have the professional knowledge that doctors get after 5 years study followed by internship. Therefore Saikat is wrong in inferring what he does and conferring a malafide intent on the COAS.
CPOs are forces that are to ensure that situations do not escalate to an extent that the Armed Forces have to step in. Perhaps Saikat, with coloured views and vision, forgets that had the CPO done their duties correctly we would not have had the Punjab, Assam, Naxal insurgencies.
Finally, Saikat needs to understand that leaked documents do not pronounce the COAS, CNS guilty and the bureaucracy led by Chandarsekhar, Cab Secy innocent of misdoings.
Wait for the GoM to pronounce whether the Govt has the confidence in the Armed Forces by examining and finding the misgivings correct and restoring the pay bands and correcting the anomalies.
If the Govt finds that the Armed Forces are wrong and can substantiate it publicly, let it have the confidence of asking for the resignations of the three Chiefs.
Dear Mr Datta,
I hope this mail reaches you and I hope you answer it.First of all i would like to suggest that the Armed forces have very little sexual discrimination,inspite of what the media projection. Only in the recent past 2 highly qualified and professional ladies have reached the top of their respectives cores ,only on the basis of their sheer professionalism.So, implying in an oblique way that the MNS officers are being discriminated because of their Sex does not hold water.I shall not talk about other issues but this only.
1.Nowhere in the world are the nurses superior to the Doctors or are paid in equivalance or established superiors.
2.Though the Army has given them Ranks for administrative purposes they are not superior Officers.
3.Let us not be Lotus eaters- A mistake was made in 2001 when they were permitted to wear OG and we have seen the consequences when they refused to take orders when treating patients and I can assure that a lot patients lost their lives!
4. The MNS is highly professional and have a tough life but let us understand that so do a lot of people.There are highly qualified nurses who are at times so good that they enjoy the respect of one and all but then they cannot replace Doctors ( Somehow alot of people feel they can- to their and the patients detriment-including Ramdeo Baba).
5.let me tell you that Your Topmost Officer ( Military or Civil however qualified or intelligent cannot do the Job of a highly qualified Superspecialist-As he cannot do theirs because they inhabit different worlds and are trained for different things thogh they maybe of equal calibre).
I would request you to kindly bear this in mind and please investigate youe stories more thoroughly as bad journalism is just bad gossip
Regards ,
SG
Dear Saikat,
Let me as clinical as you claim to be.
There is no subsidised liquour. Please feel free to visit any Unit Run Canteen and see the difference is that the liquour is cheaper in any State that does not levy its taxes and VAT is 4%.
Free rations in a misnomer for it is entitled rations. Today any officer and jawan gets between Rs 43 and 38 per day, that is about Rs 1300 per month. What entitled ration will you get for that amount when potatoes are Rs 20+ per kg, onions as dear, tomatoes too; cauliflowers and cabbages, peas and beans sell at a higher price, milk is Rs 26 per litre, butter prices are Rs 85 per 500 gms, muttonis Rs 210 per kg; fish Rs 180 per kg for surmai.
Brig and above are not entitled for staff but if some misuse them then punish those few and don't tar everyone with the same brush. Why didn't you publish the names of those who misuse soldiers, sailors and airmen, non-combatants? That would have been better.
Much as you defend your article and write that it conveys much more, even something different, than many of us percieve, read etc, I was not able to find a single sentence that condemned the IAS for doing what it did.
As for the warrant of precedence, it was re-done some time in the 1970's. Why didn't you quote that? because quoting the 1968 letter of MHA was more convenient and better suited your article?
Come on, Saikat. We may be gullible but wer are not fools
@ SAIKAT...
"It also needs some soul searching. Issues such as perks for senior officers by means of subsidised liquor, free rations, misuse of PBORs by making them wash clothes, swipe the floor etc. I have personally witnessed these above acts. Should Brigadiers and above be given such perks?. I have no answers but I would love to hear your views on the above."
MY DEAR FRIEND...I OJECT TO THE WORD PERKS USED BY YOU IN REPLY TO NAVDEEP...THE LIQUOR WHICH IN NO MORE SUBSDISED ,THE RATIONS AND CSD ETC ARE ENTITLEMENTS..NOT REPEAT NOT PERKS..SO PLEASE STAND CORRECTED...
SECONDLY ARMY HAS TRADEMAN WHOSE JOB R TO WASH CLOTHS, CLEANS AREAS ETC THEY R EMPLOYED FOR THIS PARTICULAR JOB ONLY.....
I THERFORE URGE YOU NOT TO GET CARRIED AWAY ..JUST BECAUSE U SAW PBOR DOING WASHING CLOTHS DOESNOT MEAN THEY R BEEN MISUSED...
YOU HAVE TO ACCEPT YOU HAVE GATHERED SKEWED INFORMATION WITH BIASED MIND...SO NO USE JUSTIFYING IT...YOU WILL ONLY END UP MAKING A FOOL OF YOURSELF...HAPPY WRITING...
If you can not win the Argument consuse the issue.
DFAFMS post to be upgraded to Sec leval post was recommended by the Joint Armed Forces Pay cell..
It was recommended to be upgraded along with the PSOs and Heads od Arms and Srvices...
The Committee of Secretatries has accepted the case of DGAFMS but not others as most of the secretaries in Delhi want their pled asses to be reapaired at RR hospital.
Come on IAS babu do not spread such misinformation. You Babus only know how to lit the fore, it is only we the Armed Forces including and always with DGAFMS, those who know how to extinguish the fire..
babus are putting all comraderie, organisation and patience of the Armed Forces on Fire. They want MNS to fight Doctor, Doctors to fight Armed Forces, PMF to scre Tha army...they have stooped down to all their dirty tricks..
They are now instigating..
I would say. No one to indulge in any thing that gives thse Babus an excuse to say "look we said That" and "they are bad"
Understand what they are doing and why? Recofnise their targets and objectives.
Be aware of their feints and diversionaries.
Get together, put your minds together, think better than them, employ uour resorces batter then than them.
You are tarined in Strategy and War not they.
But ...Enough is Enough...Now they must be shown their places and Cut to the size, the words they used for you all...
battle has begun..I do not feel it is going to finish and end at PB-4..
The issues and matters of contest anre fundamantal..they are hell bent on destroying you all and the Country....
Do not think and act like emeotional fuzies...think and act like stategicians...
jai Hind...
Dear navdeep, good u have done it again. Removed my comments. U people cannot hear truth. Remember people know it. Thanks
@ Anonymous at October 20, 2008 10:40 PM
Pal Hats off to the sense of humour !!
@ All
You know, Armed Forces are serving a Thankless Nation !!
May God Forgive all these sinners
@Anonymous @ 21st Oc 10.20PM
Quoting anony "Dear navdeep, good u have done it again. Removed my comments. U people cannot hear truth. Remember people know it. Thanks
October 21, 2008 10:20 PM"
Anony, please be a little more net savvy before shooting off on your keyboard. You had NOT left your comments on this post but on the post 'Actual Warrant of Precedence'
(http://indianmilitarybenefits.blogspot.com/2008/04/actual-warrant-of-precedence.html)- and your comments are still there !!!
Even earlier it was sickening to hear your rant 'you have deleted my comments' from you. This blogger does not remove any comments and fully supports the freedom of speech and expression. If you have anything to say, you are welcome but please do not indulge in foolish allegations. If you really want substance here, you are welcome to leave your name and dump the anony tag. You are welcome to discuss anything with me on my email ID too.
@annony...read ur comments..at WOP...
1. i am forced to pitty u for ur flawed mentality...
2. dear friend..the selection process of army is different from civil services because the requirements r different..
3. the trg of army is the longest and continous..and most difficult of all services..
4. only a man with lack of knowledge can compare the two services...
5. stop harping on that entrance exam..i remember a maharashtra cadre IAS had once said he should be CAB SECY..because he was topper in the entrance exam...does it make logic..do u have any other argument other than the entrance exam..how long will u live in past..i say the training of armed forces is the toughest and continous..and IAS ONLY SITS IN OFFICE OVER A PILE OF FILES..so whar do u say about it...
yes the promotions have become faster in armed forces...but havent they become faster in CIVIL SERVICES...DONT TALK NON-SENSE..BUDDY...NOT EXPECTED FROM BRIGHT PEOPLE WHO CLEAR THE SO CALLED DIFFICULT ENTRANCE EXAM OF CIVIL SERVICES..WHERE GOVT ALSO EXTENDS SOPS IN TERMS OF RESERVATIONS..AND IS NOT PURELY ON MERIT...OR INDIVIDUALS CAPABILITY...
I FEEL ON NATIONAL TV WE SHOULD HAVE A OPEN DEBATE..THE ONE WHO IS LOGICAL WILL AUTOMATICALLY SHINE...
MOREOVER..C U HAVE A COMPLEX THAT NAVDEEP WILL REMOVE UR POST..FRIEND UR POST CONTAINS TRUTH BUT HALF COCKED..SO NO NEED FOR US TO GET ALARMED..
JAO THODA GREY MATTER USE KARO
FAUJI BHAIYON KO GUSSA KYON AATHA HAI?
T.R.Ramaswami
The writer is a former banker who was with the SBI Group and DSP Merrill Lynch Ltd.
We need a permanent solution to this tussle over emoluments so that the armed forces need only confront the enemies of the nation, says T.R.Ramaswami In the continuing debate on pay scales for the armed forces, there has to be a serious and transparent effort to ensure that the country is not faced with an unnecessary civil-military confrontation. That effort will have to come from the netas, who are the real and true bosses of the armed forces and not the civil bureaucracy. A solution may lie in what follows. This country requires the best armed forces, the best police and the best civil service. In fact that is what the British ensured. By best one means that a person chooses which service he wants as per his desires/capabilities and not based on the vast differential in prospects in the various services. How much differential is there? Take Maharashtra, one of the most parsimonious with police ranks thus still retaining some merit - the 1981 IPS batch have become 3-star generals, the 1987 are 2-star and the 1994 1-star. In the army the corresponding years are 1972, 1975, 1979. – ie a differential of 1015 years. While the differential is more with the IAS, the variance with the IPS is all the more glaring because both are uniformed services and the grades are "visible" on the shoulders. First some general aspects. Only the armed forces are a real profession – ie where you rise to the top only by joining at the bottom. We have had professors of economics become Finance Secretaries or even Governors of RBI. We have any number of MBBSs, engineers, MBAs, in the police force though what their qualifications lend to their jobs is a moot point. You can join at any level in the civil service, except Cabinet Secretary. A civil servant can move from Animal Husbandry to Civil Aviation to Fertilisers to Steel to yes, unfortunately, even to Defence. But the army never asks for Brigade Commanders or a Commandant of the Army War College or even Director General Military Intelligence, even from RAW or IB. Army officers can and have moved into organizations like IB and RAW but it is never the other way round. MBBS and Law graduates are only in the Medical or JAG Corps and do nothing beyond their narrow areas. Every Army Chief - in any army - has risen from being a commander of a platoon to company to battalion to brigade to division to corps to army. In fact the professionalism is so intense that no non-armoured corps officer ever commands an armoured formation – first and possibly only exception in world military history – General K. Sunderji. Perhaps it is this outstanding professionalism that irks the civil services. Next, one must note the rigidity and steep pyramid of the army's rank structure. In the civil services any post is fungible with any grade based on political expediency and the desires of the service. For example I know of one case where one department downgraded one post in another state and up-graded one in Mumbai just to enable someone continue in Mumbai after promotion! You can't fool around like this in the armed forces. A very good Brigadier cannot be made a MajorGeneral and continue as brigade commander. There has to be a clear vacancy for a Major General and even then there may be others better than him. Further the top five ranks in the army comprise only 10% of the officer strength. Contrast this with the civil services where entire batches become Joint Secretaries. Even the meaning of the word “merit” is vastly different in the army and the civil services. Some years back an officer of the Maharashtra cadre claimed that he should be the Chief Secretary as he was first in the merit list. Which merit list? At the time of entry more than 35 years before! The fact is that this is how merit is decided in the IAS and IPS. Every time a batch gets promoted the inter-se merit is still retained as at the time of entry. In other words if you are first in a batch at the time of entry, then as long as you get promoted, you continue to remain first! This is like someone in the army claiming that he should become
chief because he got the Sword of Honour at the IMA. Even a Param Vir Chakra does not count for promotion, assuming that you are still alive. In the armed forces, merit is a continuous process - each time a batch is promoted the merit list is redrawn according to your performance in all the previous assignments with additional weightage given not only to the last one but also to your suitability for the next one. Thus if you are a Brigade Commander and found fit to become a Major General, you may not get a division because others have been found better to head a division. That effectively puts an end to your promotion to Lt. General. The compensation package must therefore address all the above issues. In each service, anyone must get the same total compensation by the time he reaches the 'mode rank' of his service. "Mode" is a statistical term – the value where the maximum number of variables fall. In the IAS normally everyone reaches Director and in the IPS it is DIG. In the army, given the aforementioned rank and grade rigidities and pyramidical structure, the mode rank cannot exceed Colonel. Thus a Colonel's gross career earnings (not salary scales alone) must be at par with that of a Director. But remember that a Colonel retires at 54, but every babu from peon to Secretary at 60 regardless of performance. Further, it takes 16-18 years to become a Colonel whereas in that time an IAS officer reaches the next higher grade of Joint Secretary, which is considered equal to a Major General. These aspects and others - like postings in non-family stations - must be addressed while fixing the overall pay scales of Colonel and below. Thereafter a Brigadier will be made equal to a Joint Secretary, a Major-General to an Additional Secretary and a Lt. General to a Secretary. The Army Commanders deserve a new rank - Colonel General and should be above a Secretary but below Cabinet Secretary. The equalization takes place at the level of Cabinet Secretary and Army Chief. If this is financially a problem I have another solution. Without increasing the armed forces' scales, reduce the scales of the IAS and IPS till they too have 20% shortage. Done? Even India 's corruption index will go down. If the above is accepted in principle, there is a good case to review the number of posts above Colonel. Senior ranks in the armed forces have become devalued with more and more posts being created. But the same pruning exercise is necessary in the IAS and more so in the IPS, where Directors General in some states are rewriting police manuals – one is doing Volume I and another Volume II! Further the civil services have such facilities as "compulsory wait" – basically a picnic at taxpayers cost. And if you are not promoted or posted where you don't want to go they seem able to take off on leave with much ease. In the army you will be courtmartialled. Also find out how many are on study leave. The country cannot afford this. Let not someone say that the IAS and IPS exams are tougher and hence the quality of the officers better. An exam at the age of 24 has to be tougher than one at the age of 16. The taxpaying citizen is not interested in your essay/note writing capabilities or whether you know Cleopatra's grandfather. As a citizen I always see the army being called to hold the pants of the civil services and the police and never the other way round. That's enough proof as to who is really more capable. Also recall the insensitive statements made by the IG Meerut in the Aarushi case and the Home Secretary after the blasts. Further, when the IAS and IPS hopefuls are sleeping, eating and studying, their school mates, who have joined the army, stand vigil on the borders to make it possible for them to do so. Remember that the armed forces can only fight for above the table pay. They can never compete with the civil services and definitely not with the police for the under the table variety. Finally, there is one supreme national necessity. The political class – not the
bureaucracy - which represents the real civil supremacy better become more savvy on matters relating to the armed forces. Till then they are at the mercy of the civil service, who frequently play their own little war games. At ministerial level there are some very specialized departments – Finance, Railways, Security (Home), Foreign and Defence, where split second decisions are necessary. It is always possible to find netas savvy in finance, foreign relations and railways. Security has been addressed in getting a former IPS officer as NSA at the level of a MoS. Is it time that a professional is also brought into the Defence Ministry as MoS? The sooner the better. In fact this will be better than a CoDS because the armed forces will have someone not constrained by the Army Act or Article 33 of the Constitution. Of course the loudest howls will come from the babus. The netas must realize that a divide and rule policy cannot work where the country's security is concerned. Recall 1962? Our army, already engaged in activities not core to their functions, including rescuing babies from borewells (!), should not have to engage in civil wars over their pay scales.
T.R.Ramaswami The writer is a former banker who was with the SBI Group and DSP Merrill Lynch Ltd.
Dear Friends on the blog,
Somebody was wondering why we almost never find CPMF and IPS officers among the constabulary laying down their lives in anti- naxal and CI operations. Here is a news report which may outline reasons. We would all be better educated if someone from the CPOs would post the offr-man casualty ratios of the armed constabularies.
Any takers? - BP Singh?
I must apologise for commenting anonymously. Much as I detest it I detest posting with sobriquets even more. I'm helpless against the DSR!
Regards to all - Faujis, Thullas, Babujis etc
BIGSTORY | Friday, October 17, 2008 | The Pioneer
More than twin issues for CPMFs
Rakesh K Singh | New Delhi
The heads of the Central Para-Military Forces (CPMF) may have woken up to the cause of pay parity for their second-in-command rank officers and the adverse impact the lateral entry of Army jawans into the CPMFs, as recommended by the Sixth Central Pay Commission (CPC), would have on their constabulary.
But a serious look into the strong resentment brewing within the CPMFs over the opposition of the Union Home Ministry to a number of CPC recommendations for the benefit of the constabulary and Group A officers too seems to be the need of the hour.
The resentment has already led to, at least, three CRPF cadre officers to resign from service in recent times ostensibly in protest of the "unfair" service conditions despite recommendations of the pay panel for their betterment. A few senior cadre officers of the BSF too have written to the Union Home Ministry for improving the service conditions as recommended by the pay panel.
The constabulary of the CPMFs, on its part, is angry and aggrieved over the non-grant of Military Service Pay on the lines of the three services, lack of provision for separated family allowance, transport allowance and double house rent allowance as applicable to the armed forces.
As things stand, the pay panel had recommended an up-gradation of the post of Additional Deputy Inspector General (ADIG) and its merger with that of the Deputy Inspector General (DIG). It also recommended filling 100 per cent of the posts with cadre officers. However, the Union Home Ministry opposed it, following which the matter was taken up by the Cabinet. The Cabinet, in turn, partially corrected the anomaly. It approved the up-gradation of 84 posts of ADIG to DIG and filling up the posts with cadre officers only. But it earmarked 30 per cent of the slots of DIGs to be filled up by the Indian Police Service (IPS) officers on deputation to the CPMFs.
The Home Ministry also opposed the pay panel recommendation for filling up of 50 per cent of the posts of the rank of Inspector General (IG) and above with the cadre officers as against the present quota of 33 per cent of the slots earmarked for Group A officers. The Railway Ministry, nevertheless, went ahead with recommending 100 per cent quota for the posts up to the rank of IGs for cadre officials in the Railway Protection Force (RPF).
"The Director Generals of ITBP, BSF, CRPF and SSB, who are scheduled to meet Union Home Secretary Madhukar Gupta on the two-point agenda, should also apprise him of these issues plaguing the CPMFs," a CPMF official said.
The IPS association maintains it has no objection in giving away the posts of IGs and Additional Director Generals (ADG) to the cadre officers provided an equal number of posts in the rank of Joint Secretary (JS) are allocated to the IPS officers on deputation to other Central postings. The IAS lobby is, however, not willing to give away the JS posts to the IPS officers.
"The IPS lobby is seeking a bigger pie of higher posts in the CPMFs at the cost of promotional avenues of thousands of cadre officers despite the recommendation of the pay panel and a number of other parliamentary committee reports favouring a filling up of majority of the posts in the CPMFs by the cadre officers and minimizing the number of IPS officers on deputation," a senior Home Ministry official pointed out.
Contrary to the standing instructions of the Union Home Ministry, a majority of the IPS officers in the CRPF, world's biggest para-military force, does not go to the operational areas and prefer to stay in the cities or at the headquarters in Delhi.
The demoralizing state of affairs within the CRPF can be gauged from the laxity with which the IPS-dominated administration appointed an ADG, who was suffering from paralytic stroke, as in-charge of Jammu and Kashmir. The Uttar Pradesh cadre IPS official was repatriated to his cadre after the matter came to the notice of senior officials of the cadre-controlling ministry. "Even the proposals for the award of gallantry medals to a number of IPS officers in the CRPF have come under the scanner," sources said.
Most of the IPS officers in the ranks of IGs and DIGs in the CRPF, BSF, SSB and ITBP are posted in the cities while the service officers are given the responsibilities in the harsh operational areas of Jammu and Kashmir, North East and Maoist-infested areas. "Cadre officials are promoted to the level of DIGs after putting in more than 30 years of service and they reach the level at about 56 years of age. They are promoted to the level of IG at about 58 years. Cadre officers are manning almost all the difficult operational areas and the specialized CPMFs are hardly gaining anything from the IPS officers who barely specialize only in law and order duties as against the required experience in counter-insurgency operations," sources said. The IPS lobby of the CRPF has even blocked the formation of an association by an 8,500-strong Group A officers of the paramilitary force in order to check creation of a grievance redressal mechanism for the specialized cadre officers, a senior cadre official of a CPMF said.
@Anno 9:58
Thanks for good article .
All others: Do read and educate yourself. There is no alternative to knowledge and remaining informed.
Dear All,
My apologies. I cannot reply to all of you at the same time. So this is an attempt to reply to some of the issues raised by you.
1. When I said about Sahayaks, you may like to read the Times of India, Delhi edition which says that the Parliamentary Standing Committee has recommended that it be banned. They have also stated that since the IAF and the IN do officers do without sahayaks then the army should do so. Any comments on the same?
2. As regards the Warrant of Precedence. The document is a 1968 notification issued by the MHA on behalf of the Cabinet Secretariat. It is true that a later letter was issued but it continued to hold this letter as the last word on precedence. That said, here's my point.
a) No matter what the warrant of precedence says, will a Service chief ever have more clout than the defence secretary?
b) Both the Secretary (R) (R&AW Chief) and the Director., Intelligence Bureau are lower in the WoP to the army chief. In reality the Secretary (R) and the DIB have access to the Prime Minister as well as the National Security Advisor. Do the service chiefs have any access to them?
c) Strategy and strategic thinking in India is decided by police officers since the IPS has cut the services out? Even our special forces have been left defunct due to the kind of policies we follow , which has been dictated by the DIB or the Secretary (R) with the armed forces kept out of the loop complteley.
d) While the WoP might say something who is the Prime Minister likely to listen to...his bureaucrats or the service chiefs. Till now evidence available with us shows that he has gone along with the bureaucrats. Why is this forum not talking about the PM's position on this as the head of the government?
3. About the COAS' letter to the cabinet secretary I think Navdeep has addressed this adequately. There were suggestions that this comes under the Official Secrets Act. Its sad that we have to fall back on a draconian law created by the British in 1923 to quell any adverse or contrary opinion. Well the letter has not been marked as restricted, let alone any other level of classification.
4. About the lack of research of this article. Well I have tried to bring out and expose the kind of arguments that the bureaucracy will use to counter the forces' arguments on pay, parity and status. You are welcome to shoot the messenger (me) but it would be better to use nuanced and logical arguments to counter them (the bureaucracy) than to use rhetoric here. In that regard I find that Navdeep is making an excellent effort to do exactly this...use correct and substantiated information to counter a wrong.
5. My second last point on this post and I would love your reactions on this...The last Norther Army Commander Lt Gen Panag was moved out of Northern Command by this army chief unceremoniously. Panag protested this with the defence minister and also put his objections down to the move in writing. This has never been discussed with as much passion or anger as the issue of pay and perks is concerned. My point is if army commanders have been reduced to such internal political machinations, won't the bureaucrat use this to continue to down grade the services. Who lost in the battle to remove Panag. I am saddened to say it was the army and its ethos!
6. And my last point for this post. In 1947 our battalions were commanded by senior Majors or Lt Cols. Today full colonels are commanding them. Is this our only solution to our manpower issues in the military. Have we not down graded the full colonel to the level of a senior major or Lt Col by making him do now, what his junior predecessors used to do? Or shall we now see Brigadiers commanding battalions/regiments/units from now on? Any thoughts?
warm regards
Saikat
Mr Saikat Dutta
Now you are trying to become messenger
May we know whoose? IAS Lobb'S ANY DOUBT
Well The job of ARMY navy and Airforce has differing requirement
Iam an Airforce Officer Much That I envy SAHAYAK Heart to Heart I know it is ervice neccissity for ARMY
Why u dont cry about scores of servants at disposal of IAS IPS IRS AND SCORES of such services
They work 9 to 5 unlike 24 hrs routine and tens of dresses all shining for Service Officers
Will u like your ARMY commanders to be shabbily dressed
2. In 1947 How many districts and how many IPS IAS WE HAD
CAN YOU COUNT HOW MANY STAR RANK IPS officers were there
Tell me what do you want IPS IAS should get all promotions pay rise perks and ARMED FORCES OFFICERS to retire as Major equivalent
3. In stead of posing questions and critising us on issues of MNS, lt gen panag, sahayaks please come out with some constructive suggestions to improves status of services. That you wont do as your appears to be one and only to show services in poor light.
4. SO NICE TO HEAR FROM YOU THAT SERVICE CHIEF DONT HAVE EARS AND EYES OF PM and RM . Dr Manmohan Singh will be very pleased to know that his service chiefs dont have access to him . Which world are you living and whom are you trying to fool.
5.IF CODS is implemented he will have more clout status than that of DEF SEC
BYE
Perhaps the posters (myself included) have been doing you an injustice, Mr Datta. Your latest post is balanced, and very fair.
1. Insofar as Sahayaks are concerned, their real value lies in field operations, things of which sort do not apply to the Air Force or Navy.
Can we agree that they do not serve in the field, in the same manner as an infantry/artillery/armour/engineersofficer does?
The air force boys are almost always operating mostly in a base environment. Full facilities are available.
The Naval chaps are afloat, on ships which have facilities far superior to that found "Somewhere in the Western Sector", Rajasthan, in tentage.
So the batman is the officers confidant, his sahayak, his bodyguard, and his friend.
So I feel that the Air Force and Navy argument is specious. Certainly, I agree that they shouldnt be used as domestics.
I feel that the institution of Sahayak is an important one, and should be retained.
I wonder where the impetus for their removal came from?
2. I agree that strategic thinking is dictated by the bureaucrat/intelligence community. Whether this is completely incorrect, is another matter.
3. Again, I agree, that the Lt. Col. should command batallions. This anomaly has arisen due to the downgradation of the LTC rank. The logical out come of all this rank inflation is Lt Gens commanding batallions. Increase LTCs to PB4, and make them command BNs again!
And thank you for highlighting some of the issues which you have.
Lt Colhas became select rank after AV Comitte Phase -1 in 2005. What about Lt Col before that They were selected tothat rank. By the way any chance of PB4 for Lt Col?
kxovnixy@ Navdeep
How can one be sure the last post is indeed from Saikat Datta?
Seems to be a mischievious attempt- bringing in Gen Panag into this.
We do have highest regards for this General Officer and only pity for Sh Saikia.
another round of redoubts from shri saikat (is this not a fake)
we seek clarifications from him and all he does is pop in an pose more ridiculous questions....aka Socrates...ask questions my son - you will get the answers automatically.
what has this man answered in his latest barrage of questions......
if army uses sahayaks then navy and air force do not...so are they part of the greater problem of type casting?
is gen panang milk white and pure to be the cause of others suffering without justice to the resources of the army chief
he trashes OSA as being draconian and outdated... so why doesn’t he use his good offices and influence to change the scene rather than let this draconian rule be applied discriminately incriminating those that are already weak and suffering from this dragon
he asks “Why is this forum not talking about the PM's position on this as the head of the government?”...well why doesnt he pose this problem to the Pm and advice/caution him against the bureaucrats ...mr saikat you can’t do that...how do you question your masters
now “About the lack of research of this article. Well I have tried to bring out and expose the kind of arguments that the bureaucracy will use to counter the forces' arguments on pay, parity and status. You are welcome to shoot the messenger (me) but it would be better to use nuanced and logical arguments to counter them (the bureaucracy) than to use rhetoric here. In that regard I find that Navdeep is making an excellent effort to do exactly this...use correct and substantiated information to counter a wrong”....wow amazing ...here comes the kalki on his white winged horse to save us from the demon ias
he says “My point is if army commanders have been reduced to such internal political machinations, won't the bureaucrat use this to continue to down grade the services” so now the indian bureaucrats are another form of enemy that the armed force have to contend with.....compare this to “We need a permanent solution to this tussle over emoluments so that the armed forces need only confront the enemies of the nation, says T.R.Ramaswami”....tell me what do you prefer?
He says in the end “Have we not downgraded the full colonel to the level of a senior major or Lt Col by making him do now, what his junior predecessors used to do? Or shall we now see Brigadiers commanding battalions/regiments/units from now on? Any thoughts?” i have seen an “IG documentation and Stationery” (yes Stationery) in UP! So what are we harping on
A poor state this is if even the so called observing and analytical press is resorting to assuming positions/takes/opinions/stand/posture etc what have you
I hope you rue your stand and the damage this has done to this incredible india, in the days to come
Dear Mr Dutta,
Please remember when you make a statement that a Maj used to be in Command in early 50's did you also account for the number of people in Indian Army in that time? Do your research efore you make such comments? or areyouone of those aome of the bggers have been saying - "An IAS Plant".
By your same logic, the Chief of Naval Staff in 1947 was a Commodore, does it mean that today also he should be a Commodore?
Mr. Dutta you your analysis make me sick.
dear saikat..
once again u r wrong...buddy why dont u understand u r seriously lacking logic...
i dont ve time rt now..so only this much..commanding officers are still lt cols only..they r only given something called acting ranks..
as fae as chiefs not having access to PM..friend congress worker or the servant of PM has more access then even Director IB..so going by ur logic ..he is senior to everyone....ZARA SOCH SAMJH KE LIKHO BHAI...REPORTER HO..
Dear Saikat,
Here is my response
1. When I said about Sahayaks, you may like to read the Times of India, Delhi edition which says that the Parliamentary Standing Committee has recommended that it be banned. They have also stated that since the IAF and the IN do officers do without sahayaks then the army should do so. Any comments on the same?
My Comment. Yes: I can write about the IAF and in places where I was. IAF has formalized the utilization of Non Combatants (Enrolled) (NC (E) who are not, as would be obvious from the term, combatants but provide services that their trades specify – dhobi, safaiwala, lascar, etc. IAF follows the norms of utilizing the NC (E) in the primary locations and then once their jobs in the Messes/Offices are over, some do clean up the area of the Station Commanders, Air Officers Commanding etc houses. The reason is that unlike other IAF officers, these commanders must and do keep their residences open for officers and wives to call on or for official entertainment on non-formal occasions like inviting the local civilian officers etc.
The Parliamentary Standing Committee has also recommended implementing several things – most of which have not been. To pick this Sahayak issue and beat the Armed Forces would be unfair in the least, selective amnesia in the worst.
2. Warrant of Precedence. The document is a 1968 notification issued by the MHA on behalf of the Cabinet Secretariat. It is true that a later letter was issued but it continued to hold this letter as the last word on precedence. That said, here's my point.
a) No matter what the warrant of precedence says, will a Service chief ever have more clout than the Defence Secretary?
My Comments. No, the Armed Forces Chiefs will not have more clout than the Def Secy because the Def Secy is supported by others of the IAS, IDAS etc. But the situation would change if the CDS is introduced. It will not be because the inter-services sparring for protection of turf and the tacit encouragement by the politicians (letting the issue gather dust in files in the maze of South and North Blocks).
b) Both the Secretary (R) (R&AW Chief) and the Director., Intelligence Bureau are lower in the WoP to the army chief. In reality the Secretary (R) and the DIB have access to the Prime Minister as well as the National Security Advisor. Do the service chiefs have any access to them?
My Comment. Service Chiefs can and should have access to the PM if they chose to insist. But for that they would have to do two things – forget years of training about the command, control and communications chain and by pass the Minister. The Sec (R) and Director IB do that tacitly and the Minister of Home Affairs perhaps finds it convenient not to have to convey the “news” and assessments.
Incidentally, from 1985 to 1989 I had the ear of then PM as much as the then Director IB had. I flew then PM on about 60 % of his flights all over India. I retired as an air marshal. You can assume the rest.
c) Strategy and strategic thinking in India is decided by police officers since the IPS has cut the services out? Even our special forces have been left defunct due to the kind of policies we follow , which has been dictated by the DIB or the Secretary (R) with the armed forces kept out of the loop completely.
One needs to know what the National Interest is and then the political leadership must pursue that. If our Govt did that then we would have a coherence in National Policy which in turn will give rise to Strategic and Tactical plans. Once these plans are formulated, we would find means and methods to provide information that will aid in implementing the plans. When we have none of the above, as would be evident by the meandering course and fluctuations in response.
Yesterday, BJP opposed the Indo-US Nuclear deal not because it is against National Interest but because UPA should not take credit for it.
Today, the CPM did not raise a whimper when Pakistan, our most visible adversary signed a nuclear deal with China, our silent adversary. So what national interest was Comrade Karat shouting about?
So my counter-question – what strategy and strategic thinking?
d) While the WoP might say something who is the Prime Minister likely to listen to...his bureaucrats or the service chiefs. Till now evidence available with us shows that he has gone along with the bureaucrats. Why is this forum not talking about the PM's position on this as the head of the government?
My Comment. There are a few things that the PM needs to have to bring the bureaucrats in line. First is the courage to take a stand and see it through. If the PM showed the same resolve that he did for the Indo-US Nuclear Civilian Cooperation Agreement, he would achieve it. Then there is that procedure re-introduced through the back-door – a bureaucrat found prima facie guilty of embezzlement (euphemistically called “assets beyond known sources of income), will never be punished. By the time the file travels the maze the political set-up will change or more damaging and utterly irresponsible, the file will be lost.
3. About the COAS' letter to the cabinet secretary I think Navdeep has addressed this adequately. There were suggestions that this comes under the Official Secrets Act. Its sad that we have to fall back on a draconian law created by the British in 1923 to quell any adverse or contrary opinion. Well the letter has not been marked as restricted, let alone any other level of classification.
My Comment: There is the Explosives Act of 1884 too but we follow that. OSA of 1923 is still on the books so it is still law.
Not every letter is marked Restricted because when the COAS wrote that letter he thought, mark my words, he thought that the addressee would understand the importance and the confidentiality of the matter. Let me not write about what you use as an excuse.
4. About the lack of research of this article. Well I have tried to bring out and expose the kind of arguments that the bureaucracy will use to counter the forces' arguments on pay, parity and status. You are welcome to shoot the messenger (me) but it would be better to use nuanced and logical arguments to counter them (the bureaucracy) than to use rhetoric here. In that regard I find that Navdeep is making an excellent effort to do exactly this...use correct and substantiated information to counter a wrong.
My Comment. Your article was published in a national magazine but most reactions are on this blog. You had time to check your information, facts, assumptions etc and yet you left the substantial issues or did not place them in the correct context. If you had done so, you might not have elicited violent, abusive comments. Most of us do not want to shoot the messenger (you) for that would make you a pyrrhic person. But for what cause?
5. My second last point on this post and I would love your reactions on this...The last Northern Army Commander Lt Gen Panag was moved out of Northern Command by this army chief unceremoniously. Panag protested this with the defence minister and also put his objections down to the move in writing. This has never been discussed with as much passion or anger as the issue of pay and perks is concerned. My point is if army commanders have been reduced to such internal political machinations, won't the bureaucrat use this to continue to down grade the services. Who lost in the battle to remove Panag. I am saddened to say it was the army and its ethos!
My Comment. COAS moved Panag like the PM moves his ministers. Second, the PM does not need the approval of the President to shuffle, drop or elevate his ministers. Deepak Kapoor needs the approval of the CCPA. To obtain the approval of the CCPA he needs to provide adequate information, logic and convince the CCPA on why he is doing it. I am not able to place my finger on one item in any publication (and surprisingly, yes surprisingly) even as a leak that Deepak short-circuited the procedure.
COAS proceeded against Panag much like former CAS Krishnaswamy removed Bhatia in 2002. But COAS did not proceed against Panag like CAS Krishnaswamy did against Sekhon (again in 2002).
Yes the Army lost because COAS was soft on Panag.
6. And my last point for this post. In 1947 our battalions were commanded by senior Majors or Lt Cols. Today full colonels are commanding them. Is this our only solution to our manpower issues in the military. Have we not down graded the full colonel to the level of a senior major or Lt Col by making him do now, what his junior predecessors used to do? Or shall we now see Brigadiers commanding battalions/regiments/units from now on? Any thoughts?
Ajai Vikram Singh has been much lauded for the plethora of promotions that he has provided for the Armed Forces. I agree with you that it has led to a dilution of the responsibilities. Hegel said that we learn from History that we never learn from History.
In 1966, as a Pilot Officer (from the 1963 to 1969 influx into the Armed Forces), I was doing Base Operations Officer and Orderly Officer duties. As I was promoted through the ranks of Flying Officer and Flight Lieutenant, I continued to carry out Base Ops Offr duties. I graduated to Station Duty Officer duties as a Sqn Ldr and the the cadre review of 1977 and subsequent years bestowed the same duty on me as a Wg Cdr.
AVSC now only perpetuates that process in the form/excuse that more higher ranks will see better career prospects. Armed Forces will now suffer the same fates that the IAS (its tiers of Secretaries, Special Secretaries, Super-time Secretaries et al) and the IPS (DGP of the State, DGP each of Jails, Vigilance, and what have you) with bickering and camp followers more loyal than the King.
I wish the Armed Forces had settled on higher stagnation pay or some such allowances and/or perquisites to assuage the stagnation.
With Best wishes for objectivity rather than sensation,
Air Marshal (retd) S Y Savur PVSM AVSM ADC
P.S: Have not checked so E & OE
Dear Everyone,
I think people should not take umbrage just because the Chiefs have been called TradeUnion leaders! It may actually be a backhanded compliment as the Defence minister in the previous gevernment was an Ex tradeUnion leader. So what they maybe implying is that though the Army Chiefs may never be able to rise as high as the Defence Secretary they can always aspire to a slightly lower Office and look forward to becoming a Defence Minister in The Government!
Spot on Air Marshall!
COAS was soft on Panag - couldn't agree with you more. I have high regards for both. As my old company commander always said a commander must be capable of both ruthlessness and magnanimity - and while being either, don't wait for your aunt's advice! But, that it was done with minimum political brouhaha was perhaps an overreaching imperative for the Chief. Kudos to the Chief for that. I almost feel sorry for Saikat, who is waiting eagerly for a juicy bit on this - "...and I would love to hear your reaction on this(Panag's transfer)"
@Saikat
This is rich - a journo asking his readers to better his 'research'? While 'sensation' is what got you the responses on this blog, try to rely on logic and facts, my dear friend.
Guys, this was a comment on a news item: ‘No resentment among armed forces over Sixth Pay Commission report’
"No Resentment?
Doesn’t any legislator browse the net?!
A bunch of feather brained ninnies.
What does he need- a bullet up his ass?"
@Navdeep
Among others, the fact that officers respond acerbically even to a minor negative tone, howsoever fleeting in an otherwise positive (for the forces) argument shows the seething unbridled anger at the wanton down- gradation by the less than honourable babus.
@ ALL...
6TH CPC'S EFFECTS AND THE FINAL OUTCOME OF THE GOM WILL GO A LONG WAY IN DECIDING THE FATE OF THIS COUNTRY..
PERHAPS NO BODY HAS EVEN IMAGINED THAT IF THE ARMY WHICH EARLIER USED TO GO IN FOR OPS WITH AN IMPRESSION THAT NATION IS LOOKING AT THEM WITH PRIDE WHEN NOW WILL HAVE TO BE FORCED FOR OPS..EVERY ONE INCLUDING THE LEADER OF OPERATION WILL FIRST THINK IS IT WORTH PUTTING MY LIFE AT RISK...HE MAY NOT REFUSE THE ORDERS..BUT WHO CAN CHECK HIM FOR THE SINCERITY OF HIS EFFORTS..NONE..
WE R HEADING FOR DISASTER...RATHER WE ARE ALMOST THERE..A DEMOTIVATED ARMY THAT IS WHAT THE 6TH CPC HAS EVEN THE NATION..
I do not think I am ever going to let my life be in danger anymore.NO one's bothered here and life goes on.Only ones who suffer are your family.I want peace of mind and I am not going that extra mile.NO WAY..........
"Any Country that does not care for its soldiers loses moral rights to expect them to die for its Security."
Gentlemen,
The fight against IAS lobby has now got dirtier and cheap. Todays news on TV was that a decision on withdrawing Sahayaks from army officers was to be taken shortly by cabinet.
I think that country does not require defence any more. Task of defending nation should be handed over to Police.
I feel sorry for the country. IAS and IPS with there low reputation want army to go their way.
Really? A decision was to be taken shortly on the Sahayak issue? What about the 6th CPC anomalies issue?
I am Medical Officer in the Army and Fought the Kargil War with great dediction with a Gallantry award and Battle Casualty.Was deployed in OP Parakaram for 1 1/2 yrs. Paid the taxes plus the surcharge of taxes( due to additional burden of war) wherease no business man of this country paid the taxes. I was shocked to see tax returns of people maintaining two Honda city cars and showing income of Rs 1,45,000.00 . Do you think after the SPC and the inspiring thoughts of our countrymen people like me should safegaurd this nation????????????
I just wonder that after such acrimony, even if the anomalies are resolved, will we ever put overselves in the line of fire?
It will be really tough commanding henceforth.
@ Air Marshall Savur
grateful! Sir.
@Saikat
My two cents on the points raised in your second post :
1. The issue of Sahayaks is quite touchy. I don’t think the govt would abolish it but yes menial duties of any kind - for combatants, should be avoided.
2. No, that letter is neither a notification nor issued by the MHA. It is fake but you are not to be blamed for this since it has been in circulation since long. But anyone with half an official brain should be able to make out the hollowness of it since SO is a Group B official and cannot be compared with a Major (Commissioned and Group A) or even an ACDA (again Group A). Let’s take up the points raised by you in a military backdrop :
(a) Clout varies by appointment not by official status. For example, can the CO of an Infantry Battalion (Col) have more clout than a Garrison Engineer of the Sappers (Major). NO ! I think that example should address parallel arguments.
(b) Representatives of the Corps of Signals or Engineers may have direct access to the formation Commander – hence more ‘clout’, but does it make them senior to Battalion Commanders ?
(c) Well, the entire set up is to be blamed for this chaos.
(d) I agree that it is no crime highlighting such a letter, it addresses a public issue and is open to public scrutiny. We live in the age of Information where the CIC has held that even proceedings of military (promotion) selection boards are disclosable.
(e) I had no problems with your article whatsoever except the incorrect status equation and the historical equivalence of MNS officers.
(f) Never studied this issue much hence cannot offer comments per se.
(g) Battalions are still commanded by Substantive Lt Cols who are Acting Colonels in the actual pay of Lt Col. An officer reaches the pay of a Colonel in 20 years of service. On the other hand, even appointments on the civil side have been degraded in that sense. If we had one SP CID in the entire state, now we have a DGP looking after CID, Now we have IsG for Provisioning, Stationery and what not. But that’s another story altogether. Despite downgradation of appointments on the civil side, a pay parity with the IAS has already been implemented but not even an iota of reference of that for the uniformed services (including Paramilitary), Why this bias ?
Regards
Navdeep
The babus talk about the Parliament comitte reports ; lets see the 12 report and action taken report "Action Taken by the Government on the Recommendations contained
in the Twelfth Report of the Committee (Fourteenth Lok Sabha) on
‘Review of Medical Services and Education in the Defence Sector"
The Comments of the Committee para 70 page 26
70. The Committee note that the Ministry have carried out
recruitment in the AFMS thrice in recent past to limit the gap
between the authorised and held strength. The Committee are,
however, surprised to note that despite all efforts, the Ministry are unable to attract the young and talented doctors and youth to fill up the vacancies. The Committee are deeply concerned to learn that the Ministry themselves have admitted that the Armed Forces is not a popular career and comes up as the second choice for the young aspirants. The Committee strongly feel that it is the Ministry which is accountable for making it an unpopular choice among the youth. The Committee do not see any reason why comparable and attractive pay packages may not be offered by the Government to the youth joining the Defence Services, keeping in view, the market conditions and remunerative perks and allowances being offered to them by the private sector enterprises. The Committee, while examining the Defence PSUs viz. HAL and BEL, also noticed the same trend of attrition of engineers and scientists for the search of better pay package. The Committee, therefore, recommend that the Government should seriously consider the concern of the Committee and devise attractive pay structure and allowances for the doctors so that they do not think of pursuing a career outside the AFMS."
What the SPC done:- Forget about the pay equivalent to private doctor but Armed Forces Doctor pay shall be less than CGHS doctor. At 14 yrs of service CGHS doctor is in PB4 GP 8700 and at 20Yrs of Service CGHS doctor is SAG (100%)in GP 10000. While his counterpart Army doctor at 21 yrs GP 8700 in PB4 by selection (i.e.) only 50% will make to it and GP 10000i.e Major General 7-8% after 29 Yrs of service. Does the defence comitte has any relevence?
Which doctors will join Army? What will be the 'perk' free medicals to Armed Forces? I can Imagine! Dear Freinds welcome to reality get your self insured for Medical Insurances!
@ rohit...
u r absolutely right the damage has already been done...there is no price for TRUST AND CONFIDENCE...that is what they ve robbed from armed forces..in this information era even the soldiers r questioning ..y should i go and face the bullets when nation is not bothered about me...
WHAT VE U DONE ...THE INDIAN GOVT
ACLU Demands Information on Military Deployment Within US Borders
Deployment Erodes Longstanding Separation Between Civilian and Military Government
NEW YORK - October 21 - The American Civil Liberties Union today demanded information from the government about reports that an active military unit has been deployed inside the U.S. to help with "civil unrest" and "crowd control" - matters traditionally handled by civilian authorities. This deployment jeopardizes the longstanding separation between civilian and military government, and the public has a right to know where and why the unit has been deployed, according to an ACLU Freedom of Information request filed today.
"The military's deployment within U.S. borders raises critical questions that must be answered," said Jonathan Hafetz, staff attorney with the ACLU National Security Project. "What is the unit's mission? What functions will it perform? And why was it necessary to deploy the unit rather than rely on civilian agencies and personnel and the National Guard? Given the magnitude of the issues at stake, it is imperative that the American people know the truth about this new and unprecedented intrusion of the military in domestic affairs."
According to a report in the Army Times, the Army recently deployed an active military unit inside the United States under Northern Command, which was established in 2002 to assist federal homeland defense efforts and coordinate defense support of civil authorities. This deployment marks the first time an active unit has been given a dedicated assignment to Northern Command.
Civilian authorities, not the military, have historically controlled and directed the internal affairs of the United States. This rule traces its origins to the nation's founding and has been reaffirmed in landmark statutes including the Posse Comitatus Act, which helps preserve the foundational principles of our Constitution and democracy.
"This is a radical departure from separation of civilian law enforcement and military authority, and could, quite possibly, represent a violation of law," said Mike German, ACLU national security policy counsel and former FBI Agent. "Our Founding Fathers understood the threat that a standing army could pose to American liberty. While future generations recognized the need for a strong military to defend against increasingly capable foreign threats, they also passed statutory protections to ensure that the Army could not be turned against the American people. The erosion of these protections should concern every American."
In order to assess the implications of the recent deployment, the ACLU requested the Departments of Justice, Homeland Security and Defense today to immediately make public all legal opinions, executive orders, presidential directives, memos, policy guidance, and other documents that authorize the deployment of military troops for domestic purposes.
Since the terrorist attacks of 9/11, the Department of Defense has dramatically expanded its role in domestic law enforcement and intelligence operations, including the National Security Agency's warrantless wiretapping programs, the Department of Homeland Security's use of military spy satellites, and the participation of military personnel in state and local intelligence fusion centers. The ACLU has repeatedly expressed concern about these incremental encroachments of the military into domestic affairs, and the assignment of active duty troops to Northern Command only heightens these concerns.
this from here
http://www.commondreams.org/newswire/2008/10/21-4
I'm an infantry officer and find the the AMC offrs' predicament (in addition to lt Cols downgradation) vis' a vis' civ (SAG in 20 years) absolutely galling. What's wrong with this govt? Have they gone mad? Does this call for emergency measures or should we continue to have faith in the sagacity of the Chiefs?
It could havebeen wonderful to fight in polte and dignified manner in the ongoing " information war" . But crossing the limit by many, has opened the can of worms which will be difficult to handle by masters controlling the war. May god bless them.
From Lt Col AM Khan the GRINDER
Relax, gentlemen. Have faith in the Chiefs of brothers-in-arms.And before we appear to be presumptuous on this blog, please remember we are because of this great country not the other way around. Irrespective of what happens we will continue to have privilege of protecting our great nation.Read the following piece appearing in 'Covert'.
The Great Sepoy Mutiny of 2008
By Seema Mustafa
“The Cabinet Secretary and Defence Secretary need to go home. What the hell have they recommended?” asked retired Vice Admiral Raman Puri in an outburst that is echoed within the armed forces. The “pinpricks” of decades have become the last straw for the armed forces, with the Sixth Pay Commission not only failing to address the anomalies between the military and the civilian sector, but actually opening new and very serious issues of parity.
For the first time in Indian independent history, the three defence service chiefs have united to counter a civil decision seen as highly discriminatory and partisan by the military. “Mutiny,” screamed the bureaucrats. “Rubbish,” responded the defence officers. But it was clear to all concerned that the action by the chiefs was unprecedented, and that the Indian military is not in a mood to be pushed around anymore. The military top brass directed the accounts offices not to issue payslips in conformity with the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission, and continue with the old scales until their demands were met.
“I am very glad the chiefs have taken this stand,” said retired Vice Chief of Army Staff Lt. Gen. Vijay Oberoi. “They are doing their duty towards their men. What these bureaucrats have done is not right at all. They have been doing it in the past as well, but this year they have become excessively greedy.”
Both Puri and Oberoi were of the view that if the Government does not listen to the chiefs now, they will have “no choice but to resign”. Lt. Gen. Oberoi said that the Government will not be able to threaten or sack any of the chiefs on this issue, for if they do so, “they will be in big trouble” as the disaffection will affect the ranks. Vice Admiral Puri said that the chiefs’ dissent “is not a mutiny at all, anything stated in the official line is not mutiny”. And, as he pointed out, the Government had not ordered them to accept the recommendations of the Sixth Pay Commission, but had instead now agreed for a review. But, he admitted, that the Government’s failure to address the four points raised by the defence chiefs would leave them with little option but to submit their resignations. He said that this would amount to pushing them into a “tight corner”, and if they compromise, they “will lose the respect of the men they command”.
Army Chief General Deepak Kapoor, Air Chief Marshal Fali Homi Major and Navy Chief Admiral Sureesh Mehta were amazed to find that despite repeated meetings and recommendations with all concerned, the Sixth Pay Commission created new anomalies by reducing the 70% pensionary weightage to the jawans to 50%, with the plea that the demand for allowing them lateral entry into the paramilitary forces had been accepted. This, the Government has let it be known through sources, might be accepted. But a formal announcement has still to be made.
The second discriminatory provision that has stunned all in the defence services is the lowering of pay, and thus parity, of lieutenant colonels with directors in the civil services and equivalents in the police who have been brought into Pay Band 4 while the Army officers have been left in Pay Band 3. Retired Vice Admiral O.P. Bansal pointed out that this places the lieutenant colonel, who commands a battalion, below a commandant of the BSF. The question serving officers are asking is, “Who will issue the commands now when there is a joint operation in Kashmir, the colonel or the policeman?” And this at a time when, as Vice Admiral Bansal said, “The police is corrupt and communalised. They stand and watch when a nun is getting raped. And when matters go out of hand they call in the Army.”
The anger and, as senior officers said, “hurt” in the defence services are visible. Officers are speaking out and as one in the service said, “It is now a fight to the finish. Either they agree to give us parity or they don’t. We will then know where we really stand.” A senior officer pointed out that the problem was not of money but of parity. “We have no problem if they place the lieutenant colonels and the directors and the police commandants in Pay Band 3 instead of 4, but they cannot raise the pay scales of some and leave the military to stew in its own juice,” he said. Significantly, special care is being taken at all levels not to say a word against the politicians. The anger is directed at the IAS officers, “the babus who only look after their own interests”
The third provision that has already had a fallout in Jammu and Kashmir is also high on the list of anomalies submitted by the chiefs to their Minister, A.K. Antony. Here again the deputy police chiefs have been placed in a higher grade than the lieutenant generals. The result is, according to sources, a DGP in Jammu and Kashmir just very recently refused to attend a meeting convened by the lieutenant general in command. “Who is in command now?” the sources asked. “The general or the policeman in the counter-insurgency operations? Now the same will happen in Assam, Nagaland, the entire Northeast.”
The fourth item in the list is parity of Grade Pay between different officers. Lt. Gen. Oberoi pointed out that the question of “one-rank one-pension” had also not been settled. He said that this issue had been raised by the armed forces 25 years ago. In the Fifth Pay Commission it had been conceded for the junior ranks, not including the JCOs and the officers. “We thought that this would now be given under the Sixth Pay Commission, but this time they have withdrawn what they had given last time as well,” he said. The bureaucrats’ argument of unmanageable expenses is not working, for as the sources here pointed out, DCPs have been taken into Pay Band 4 and their numbers far outnumber that of lieutenant colonels and their equivalents in the other services.
The widening gap between the civil services and the armed forces is a major cause of concern. And although no one will say this, it is clear that the politicians in power encourage this and put their weight behind the civil services. Lt. Gen. Oberoi was the only officer spoken to who admitted that “The political class is more comfortable with the bureaucrat than the soldier. If you give a wrong order to the soldier he will protest, while the civil administrator will ensure a way of making it happen.”
Former Navy Chief Admiral Vishnu Bhagwat was sacked, again in an entirely unprecedented action, for insisting, amongst other issues, that he would not change his nominee — a young Muslim officer — to the Research and Analysis Wing. Under the rules, the services depute an officer to RAW, but given the external intelligence agency’s unwillingness to employ Muslims, the Admiral’s nominee was struck down. The Navy Chief refused to compromise, and eventually the decision led to his being sacked from the service. Vice Admiral Bansal said, “This created considerable unrest in the ranks at the time.” Admiral Bhagwat told Covert from Mumbai that the absence of parity was “a deliberate attempt to subvert one of the finest and last surviving institutions of the state, the defence services”. He said that the decision of the chiefs was admirable, and that for the officers, the safety and honour of the country comes first, the safety and honour and welfare of the men comes next, and your own welfare comes last
But the problem that has set alarm bells ringing within the armed forces, compelling the chiefs to sink their known differences and act in unison, is deeper than that of just pay and parity. These are part of a deeper malaise. Despite trying to put a happy lid on what were projected as isolated instances, senior officers have not taken the instances of “fragging” [wounding or killing others under stress] and suicides within the Army lightly. As several officers said, that given the other problems, the “least” that could now be ensured for the defence services was higher pay and parity. “We are not asking for special concessions, we are just asking for parity with all the services. Do not humiliate and insult us,” a senior officer said. Admiral Bhagwat added, “We are not like the police, separate from our men. We care for our men.”
All spoken to, retired and serving, were agreed that the problems facing the armed forces were many. The 500-odd suicides in the last four years [this includes fragging] are compounded by applications from any number of officers seeking premature retirement. The defence chiefs are on the record pointing towards a serious shortage of officers — as many as 11,000 in the Army that is worst hit — because of a variety of reasons. These include better and more paying opportunities in the corporate and other sectors; the high demand for military personnel, particularly skilled staff like engineers, doctors and pilots; the tough living conditions within the Army in particular and the prolonged use of the military for civilian jobs like countering insurgency and quelling communal violence. A senior general pointed out, “They know only four words: call out the Army.”
The point made by the senior officers, including the defence chiefs in their interactions with the political bosses, is that the problem is not being able to fill the shortfall. “The issue,” as they said, “is that the better officers are leaving for other jobs and the vacancies are being filled by not as good officers.” In an Army where the sepoy waits for exact, “minutest” orders from the officers, this change will impact directly on operations on the ground. The seniors today fear that from the “best” the Indian military might suddenly find itself compromising on efficiency and even discipline.
The sepoys are also being affected by socio-economic conditions. Most sepoys are drawn from India’s villages, and earlier their families lived in the villages, in an essentially joint family system. These structures are breaking down, with nuclear families now wanting to live in urban areas and finding it difficult to deal with the larger problems in the absence of the soldier. The civil administration cooperated with the Army to ensure their families’ welfare, with petty disputes involving land and other issues being dealt with speedily. A commanding officer said, “Earlier, we just used to send a letter to the civil authority and the problems facing the jawans were immediately addressed. Today, they do not even reply to us.” The result is that stress levels are rising, and the soldier when he returns home for a limited duration is unable to handle the problems that include matrimonial disputes. He is now losing confidence in the system’s support. This, the sources said, was directly responsible for fragging and suicides. The Army has tried to introduce some measures — such as the induction of more psychiatrists, construction of family housing, allowing families to stay for specified durations with the soldiers — but all officers spoken to were unanimous that these would be piecemeal, until and unless the civil administration was made to cooperate.
The problems facing ex-servicemen are also important, with Lt. Gen. Oberoi particularly perturbed that they were not given the same respect as they used to be at home. “Boys now wanting to join are deterred by the fact that these old and retired soldiers are living lives on the margin, with no one listening to them anymore. This was not so earlier, and ex-servicemen were a major source of motivation for new recruits,” he said. As a general said, “The problem is ab sunvai nahin hai. No one listens at any level to the Army.”
It is no one’s case that the defence services are exemplary and above criticism, as the officers were quick to point out. But such is the crisis that the entire military is now speaking in one voice, and the grievances accumulated over the years — and now assuming serious dimensions — are pouring out. Corruption has become a factor, particularly as most of the defence budget is being pumped into acquisitions. Vice Admiral Puri said that in the absence of a policy to make the armed forces self reliant in weaponry, “currently 30% of the defence budget is being spent abroad, soon 60% will be, and we can only be employed as agents”.
There is a quiet determination now at all levels in the defence services to ensure that the Government must meet the demands listed by the three chiefs. The decision by the top brass not to implement the Sixth Pay Commission sent a chill down the civilian spine. The bureaucrats scrambled for cover, planting stories in sections of the media to save their skin and cover the obvious manipulation of pay scales. Defence Minister Antony had one of two choices: sack the chiefs and further exacerbate the situation, or give cognizance to their demands and restore some confidence in the military. He has fortunately chosen the latter. It is now for the Government to ensure that the four basic demands are met, and the defence forces given respect not in rhetoric, but through action on the ground
@ Yogesh
The bond Fighting Arms officer (particularly from the infantry) and his sahayak share has always remained a cause of admiration/jealousy by all including even a few in the Services. You see the real cause of uproar in the civil services is not the perk itself(wrongly seen as such by them) . Despite the civil services having obscenely larger(adds to the jealousy) colonial retinues, it is the loyalty accorded to the forces' officer that they grudge. Not realizing that loyalty is a two way street. Sustained unquestioned obedience can never be a function of legal authority. It is built by sharing dangers equally and mutual respect. If anybody dares treat his buddy as a servant - he is in deep trouble.
It is appears difficult to explain the nuances of military life. A possible reason why some officers simply resort to seemingly half-baked responses that is quite understandably construed as spoilt children' demanding from their mothers.
I bring this point out since it is a major reason for this fracas - lack of understanding the military. We will continue with these problems till the India's elite willfully embrace military service.
I forgot to add:
PS - This comment could well be one of those half baked ones!
@ALL
The above article by Seema Mustafa is a must read (LtCol AM Khan the Grinder 10.46am). Brilliant!
Dear Mr Saikat
Your association with digging up dirt related to forces is quite consistent. But your recent article has made me think, if your earlier articles were also just "plants". Whatever happened to investigative journalism? While you are at liberty to bring out flaws in defence forces, why do you choose only to bring one side of story? Is it because the "debonair" tint has to be there in everything you report?
Since Maj Navdeep has given documentary proof that nullifies documents quoted by you, would it not be a part of journalistic ethos to acknowledge the same in your magazine? Or you just want to stick with the media policy of "create a hero-then pull it down viciously, trample all over it and earn mileage from it."
The points you raise in your response do elicit a lot of thinking. Since you are a part of the fourth estate, is it not your duty to create public awareness regarding lack and absence of strategic vision of the country and who all should have a say in formulating it and advising on it? I guess it is too much a job to do so you have taken the easier way out of creating "sansani". Only people who are getting some "sansani" out of this is people who fail to understand what it means to evolve a strategic doctrine and how it can effect the nation as a whole.
Since you seem to have unbridled access to sensitive information, why do you not use it to create public awareness and bring out the culprits! The lop-sided reporting in case of sahayaks is another case in point. The context of GOM report is completely ignored and the way GOM has censured MOD is not even mentioned. Please tell me Mr Saikat that you are not wearing blinkers.
Your article has generated a lot of discussion as can be seen in this post. Your forthrightness is coming clean about your stand is admirable and definitely puts you higher compared to people like Shekhar Gupta who write something on their site and do not allow any discussion on it. Can we hope that your future stories will be balanced in presenting two sides of stories without taking any one side particularly?
@Kaps
Buddy, forget that guy now. The one to read is Seema Mustafa - she is the flavour of the season.
After so many Good Comments, enjoy some lighter moments:
Babuji Dheere Chalna
Baabuji dhire chalna, pay commission mein zara sambhalna
Haan, barhe dhokhe hain, Secretariyon ki Raah mein,
Baabuji dhire chalna."Expose" khol ke rakhana
Kyun ho khoye huye sar jhukaaye, jaise jaate ho sab kuchh lutaaye
Ye to IAS ka pehla Dharam hai, Unko nazar aate hain apne paraaye
Haan bade dhokhe hain, bade dhokhe hain is raah mein,
Baabuji dhire chalna, CPC ki sifaris badlana.
Ye to "Civil" khel hai bholebhaale, kar na dil ko ghamo ke havaale
Kaam IAS ka hamesh yahi hai, Nataon ke saath tootenge pyaale
Haan bade dhokhe hain, bade dhokhe hain is raah mein,
Baabuji dhire chalna. DGP ka status badlana.
Ho gayi hai IAS se jo anban, thaam le Chitti ya Mohana ka daaman
Soth Block ki raahein ajab hain, ho akela to IAS hain dushman
Haan bade dhokhe hain, bade dhokhe hain is raah mein,
Baabuji dhire chalna., Antony ka daaman Pakarna
Sun le too jara bhole bhale, Fauzi Bhai gussa na paale
Hon agar Naraz Antony bhi, Paranab Da Ko gale alga le
IAS ki jubani azab bhai, Unaki kahani bhi alag hai
Ab Whisky khatam hai Fauzi, Rum se hi too kaam chala le
Darna nahin wo bhole bhale, Kar na dil too gamon ke hawa le
Tu uthe to uthen chand tare, varn kon Babuon ko Sambhale
Bare Moke hain Bare Moke hain is raah main
Jai Hind
Dutta is Talking Non Sense
If OSA is archaic so is the Army Act, Evidence act and 99 percent Acts. If we follow his "Argumentative Indian" type logic, all soldiers must revolt because Army Act is archaic !! What double standards these so called Jouranlists have!
Today Col is commanding the battalion earlier it was Maj. So he should continue to do so but IPS ADG should write service manuals sitting in HO where only a SP used to be. The constabulary of district which as commanded earlier by an Inspector today has SSP, ASP, DSP and what not. Their status pay and perks have touched skies but Army should keep coming down and down. Dutta only knows about the Armed Forces. In this struggle of "Competitive Elites", Dutta is obviously is on the "higher" side.
If strategic community does not need Services Chiefs, it is their loss and loss of the country. Then keep getting your soldiers killed every where till the second liberation.
Naxalism, regional terrorism , Bhindarwalan, Assam, Sri Lanka, all are creations of this so called "Real Strategic Community" like that psudo Dixit. How can the Army Chief be part of Bhinderwalan creation and then get his soldiers killed at Golden Temple?? If Datta understand even abc of what this so called "Strategic Community" does in this country, he will realize the COAS can never be part of it or he will expose every one rather get his thousand soldiers killed in Assam by those forces which have been created by these Willy Strategicians. Datta is far removed from the real reasons and does not realize what malice we are suffering from. These so called director R&AW, IB and NSA etc do "Party Politics and Power Brokerage> Their job is "Party and Leader and election Win" management rather than manage Country's Security . Former NSA Mr Mishra has publically acknowledged it that Intelligence agencies run by IPS does nothing but this.
Thank God the three chiefs are away from it and Not part of a coterie which has job to keep a political Party in power, indulge in killing political opponents, create insurgencies and revolts, create funds and deal underhand with all sorts of shady people. Only IPS / IAS can do such things. No democratic country involves their Services into such things inside their country.
If Armed Forces and real strategic requirements are neglected then it is your loss Mr Datta. The three Chiefs can not gate crash. There is no strategic indulgence required for a leader who comes to govern for five or may be one year. In the name of strategy and national security, the leaders indulge in "rituals" of addressing commanders and a visit to Army Burrakhana. That is the beginning and end of National Security. When the real crisis comes up, there is enough cannon fodder to be thrown in. That is the only utility and value of Armed Forces for the Babus and self indulgent bureaucratic culture.
This is an important aspect from what anonymous has posted and will lead to a further exodus from the Army-
What the SPC done:- Forget about the pay equivalent to private doctor but Armed Forces Doctor pay shall be less than CGHS doctor. At 14 yrs of service CGHS doctor is in PB4 GP 8700 and at 20Yrs of Service CGHS doctor is SAG (100%)in GP 10000. While his counterpart Army doctor at 21 yrs GP 8700 in PB4 by selection (i.e.) only 50% will make to it and GP 10000i.e Major General 7-8% after 29 Yrs of service. Does the defence comitte has any relevence?
Which doctors will join Army? What will be the 'perk' free medicals to Armed Forces? I can Imagine! Dear Freinds welcome to reality get your self insured for Medical Insurances!
Let us all contribute for saikat and send him to the NDC for a crash course on National Security and Strategic Studies. He could enjoy subsidised drinks in the posh Raksha Bhavan with pieces of the rafters falling around him and sahayak's at his beck and call. He can learn that India lives in pre-Independence laws which his favourites, the IAS, lack the perspicacity, knowledge or wisdom to amend let alone frame laws relevant to Indian ethos and method of thinking. Then he can be admitted into the salubrious climes of the IAS Academy (misnamed after a wise late PM) and also the Police Academy (again wrongly named) in Hyderabad.
perhaps that might round out his education.
While you are at it, send him for the commando course. He'll know the importance of his arse and its distance from his elbow!
You know what,
The day this Saikat character's article appeared on this blog, I was going to subscribe to The Outlook magazine. They had a 2 yrs subscription offer worth Rs 4000/-. I had even put the cheque in the envelope.
But then I decided not to go ahead as a token of my protest. You guys can take your own call on this magazine.
I dont read this mag (rag) even though it comes FREE with my newsweek subscription. Stopped reading it after I saw their editor grovelling before Musharaf, on the leaked video taped meeting of editors with General Sahab.
Anyway. What is REALLY happening on the pay commission issue??
some points which you may think about:
an institution gains its importance based on its functional utility. army coming to the aide of civil authorities is now few and ar between. CPMFs have developed and are well equipped for that kind of role.
In internal conflicts the effort now is towards mediation. Militarisations of internal conflicts have just prolonged them. Some of these, like the Manipur issue, have been sustained for decades because of excessive militarisation. the country now feels that we should look or peaceful methods of resolution rather than military everywhere. in the coming years CPMFs are likely to take over all these areas from the military, as the process has already started.
The situation on the borders too is likely to get deescalated. Except for LOC the BSF and the ITBP has already moved forward and the military has been withdrawn. with no wars in the last 35 yrs, and none likely in the years ahead, the openion is shifting towards focussing more energies on internal security issues. The CPMS will be larger in size than the military in the next 6 to 7 years and they will be expected to handle most of the conflicts, 95% of which would be internal.
these are changes which are likely to make the job of a Commandant of CPMF more important, relevant and challenging. He is likely to be trained more and equipped better in the future, may be not with tanks and armoured cars, but may be with better convincing skills, better negotiating skills etc. would the army col be willing to work under him in a changed situation?
the world is changing. lets not act like ostrichs and accept some of these changes. the earlier we adapt to these the more easy will be the transition.
some points which you may think about:
an institution gains its importance based on its functional utility. army coming to the aide of civil authorities is now few and ar between. CPMFs have developed and are well equipped for that kind of role.
In internal conflicts the effort now is towards mediation. Militarisations of internal conflicts have just prolonged them. Some of these, like the Manipur issue, have been sustained for decades because of excessive militarisation. the country now feels that we should look or peaceful methods of resolution rather than military everywhere. in the coming years CPMFs are likely to take over all these areas from the military, as the process has already started.
The situation on the borders too is likely to get deescalated. Except for LOC the BSF and the ITBP has already moved forward and the military has been withdrawn. with no wars in the last 35 yrs, and none likely in the years ahead, the openion is shifting towards focussing more energies on internal security issues. The CPMS will be larger in size than the military in the next 6 to 7 years and they will be expected to handle most of the conflicts, 95% of which would be internal.
these are changes which are likely to make the job of a Commandant of CPMF more important, relevant and challenging. He is likely to be trained more and equipped better in the future, may be not with tanks and armoured cars, but may be with better convincing skills, better negotiating skills etc. would the army col be willing to work under him in a changed situation?
the world is changing. lets not act like ostrichs and accept some of these changes. the earlier we adapt to these the more easy will be the transition.
???????
Did I read that right.
I am galled with your self serving attitude.
Now that there ae more mechanics in the factory and the veh never needs an engineer.... well all engineers to work under mechanics.......
Youu put your name relevently.
yeah rt shit really happens to exist in some peoples mind.
Tell u more going on duty rt now see you guys at breakfast.
wow.
Shit_ just happened.
where did you come from anyway!
@shit_happens and annony...
u R rt shit has happened...
by the way do u even no defination of LOC and line of actual control MY DEAR SHIT....come on..i cant understand..when u people r so tactically weak then y do u open ur mouth...I GUESS TO MAKE A FOOL OUT OF URSELF friend the role of BSF IS TO BE ON GUARD ON INTERNATIONAL BORDER DURING PEACE TIME..AND NOT ON LOC OR LINE OF ACTUAL CONTROL..WHERE THERE IS NO PEACE...SECONDLY..IF U PEOPLE HAVE PLACED IAS AND IPS IN PAK AND CHINA ALSO THEN YES NO WARS IN FUTURE ALSO IS ASSURED..
HAPPY DREAMIMG....@SHIT
UR IQ IS WHAT U HAVE NAMED UR SELF...
No Army will not work under the Para military for the reason that it IS a Para Military..
Clearly para military lack self esteem. Make yourself more relevant; do not just require law to give you authority. Authority does NOT give efficiency, or respect. Armed Forces do not consider itself as just a Govt Service. Officers STAY with their men. There is real bonding here. We care for our command....you can’t even begin to understand.
I have done operations day in and day out with BSF and CPMF and at best one officer will come and stay at the BASE with them but all operations of the companies will invariably be done by an OLD hair silvered Havildar who is more often just content in staying away from the danger. IPS and other officers will only visit during day time stay at best at company BASE and claim a detachment allowance for it! And at the same time Army coy will be LEAD by the company commander, have more likely a young officer also ,who is being groomed for the future, leading a GHATAK Platoon. And if the threat will be higher, the 2IC and CO will also reach the scene with their teams.
My friend you will not need just training in negotiation and management skills, you need training in being an Officer of Men first. Army is not military just because we have air defense, tanks, artillery....etc. It’s NOT the equipment that makes us what we are! You mean we could simply transfer these equipments to you and you will be a military!!!
It is OUR way of Life. Army gives Para Military lot of visibility and responsibility for operations as only a façade its part of our PSYCHOLOGICAL OPS and you got carried away did you now?
Well its mostly to get you to provide intelligence for you keep your troops in the area for extended periods of time...and now our RR battalions don’t even do not need it anymore for we have developed our own since now only troops are turned over and the Bn retains its intelligence assets.
SHIT...at least you should get a good name for yourself....i could have avoided using such a word in my write.
I will write again on the relevance of the Army and the future of conflict. In the mean time go get some GK on how much your New Found CHEENI BHAIYA are spending on their MILITARY (and not The PARAMILITARY OR POLICE!), while you do that find out how much your Pak cousins are spending on their def and how much of aid they have transferred clandestinely to their military prep... is it to enjoy your hospitality... ... ...?
Tell u more later ...
The question is not of “a solution”. It is about alternatives. And when a choice is exercised then changes are expected. The omnipotent telephone lineman of the yesteryear has now become defunct with the coming of the mobile companies. Don’t you remember waiting hours at the bank clerk’s desk for withdrawing 500 Rs. Now it takes a few seconds at the ATM. This is change.
I am not talking about how we function. I am sure we are the best as far as that is concerned. What I am talking about is the decreasing relevance of all this. The people don’t want and don’t visualise another traditional war on the frontiers, while there has been a spurt in internal conflicts. The enemy is not just Pakistan, or China, for that matter. Muslims in India visualise majority Hindus as enemies, Naxalites visualise the Indian state as enemy, Marathi youth see biharis as enemies. So wars have changed their nature and location. They are no more on the borders. Of the 10 conflict that India is facing every year (see any UN document), only one, the Kashmir, can be classified as may be not internal. Recent happenings there have really forced us to rethink that too.
And the Indians are not looking at military solutions anymore. Not to these internal problems at least. For the simple reason that these methods have not yielded any conclusive results. So the growing irrelevance of militaristic methods and military in future. I am just trying to bring you to the right perspective.
Let us not compare ourselves with the likes of IAS/IPS and paramilitary. Their relevance has increased. What Mr Sakia calls clout. When the district DC and the Lt Col goes for a public function do you think the people will open the WoP? Travelling with my father in early 70s, who was a Major then, people got up and gave their berths in the train. Do you think they looked at the WoP then? Its all about relevance and importance. Even if I mention my rank in a civilian gathering no one notices these days. Another fact, while there are some 40,000 or more of us commanding about 12,00,000 strong military, IPS is just 3000 odd manning police and paramilitary combined 20,00,000. So obviously you can’t see them everywhere.
I am sure I will come back and justify my line of thought. Do dwell over it as these are the realities. Its better that we strategise taking these into consideration than just block our vision from them.
@ SHIT...
I JUST WANT TO SAY U R NOT A FAUJI..HAD U BEEN THEN U WOULD HAVE KNOWN THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN LOC AND BORDER...
SO DONT TRY TO POSE LIKE ONE...
UR VIEWS CANT BE EVEN CONSIDERED SINCE U R POSING AS SOMEONE WHO U R NOT....
COME OUT WITH UR REAL IDENTITY
I do not why all are confused...
The omly two PMF in the ountry are the Assama Rifles and Coast Guards.
All these others are thullas called CPOs..
Do not insult PMF by calling the thulas as PMF.
BSF BHI HAI BHAI...
And guys Assam Rifles is no way less than Army, i feel, what do all of u think???
The issue is fast deteriorating into a petty ego clash with bureaucrats long used to unbridled powers operating in the cloak of relative anonymity and emotive Senior Army officers who have not been given proper advise in a field where they are relatively inexperienced. I think we need to pause and reflect on the impact of the controversy on the present lot of younger Army , IAS, IPS and CPO officers who never had an axe to grind and are relatively not bothered about issues like WOP etc.
Throwing up issues at regular intervals finally serves the personal interest of journalists and is not going to influence the politicians to take any decision. They are in any case now more concerned with retaining power in the next elections. The senior bureaucrats too are aware of this and will delay everything without realizing its long term adverse impact on National security and harmonious relations within various arms of the same government. I for one think that Saikat's knowledge of the Armed forces is quite hollow and based on personal perceptions while living in rarefied spaces. Its spectrum is too wide for understanding even for those who have given a lifetime to it.
1.on several blogs gentleman writing as wind_swept has put link of US “Lawmaker backs pay parity, 3.5 percent raise for 2008”
2. Even our lawmakers have given parity to armed forces vis-a-vis civilians through sixth pay commission . Highest law protecting institution of our country that is Hon. Supreme Court of India in case of J P CHAURASIA & OTHERS VS Govt ( date of judgement 27 sep 1988),Pradip kr Dey vs union of india ( date of judgement 9 nov 2000), Indulal & others vs union of India (date of judgement 29 april 2002) has held that
"The equation of posts or equation of pay must be determined by expert bodies like PAY COMMISSION. They would be best judge to evaluate the nature of duties and responsibilities of posts. The pay commission ,which goes into the problem at great depth and happens to have a full picture before it, is the proper authority to decide upon this issue."
3. As per para 2.3.13 on page no. 77 of sixth pay commission report Defence forces have demanded parity with civilian posts and grant of MSP.
Sixth pay commiission has accepted their demand of MSP and also has clearly defined the parity with civilian on grade pay basis. The pay commission in para 2.3.13 has clearly written that "Status of the Defence forces officers would be determined by the grade pay attached to their post as is the case with civilian. GOVT HAS ALSO ACCEPTED BOTH THESE RECOMMENDATIONS OF PAY COMMISSION WITHOUT ANY CHANGE.
4. Defence forces have declined to accept the cabinet decision which in turn may amount to declining to accept even Hon Supreme Court rulings.
5. Not a healthy trend for the country.
Now the sahayak issue. Well let us face facts. Tha sahayak issue is institutionalised in the army. The justification for the same has been given a hundred times to the babus and they all know it. Misuse may be there which has to be controlled. But what about babus. They all have additional staff authorised in the name of camp staff who work in their homes: I mean residence come offices, These include watchmen, peons for 24 hrs, phone attenders,no of drivers who take turns, police guards, and additional guards, cooks, dhobies,etc . In different states the procedures are different. This practice goes on in most depts, like,IB,RAW.Excise , customs, judiciary and even in some central PSUs. Private sector emulates this by giving cash allownces.So who is fooling whom. As far as police is concerned the less said it is better. In addition they have a number of men in the guise of radio operators 24X7. Even in marxist ruled states the practice goes on.This even when none of them wear even the uniforms as aroutine.So let us not single out the army alone.
Dear Manoj,
The Armed Forces' Chiefs did not disobey the orders of the 6th CPC. They disagreed with the revisions made by the Committee of Secretaries (CoS)- which was not empowered to change or over-rule the 6th CPC.
It is like a court clerk changing the judgment delivered by Hon'ble Justices to benefit someone when the judgment pronounced was something different. The court clerk has no authority to change just as the CoS does not have the authority to change.
In regards to the comment posted on "October 20, 2008 3:26 PM", it looks like it's been posted by one of those AMC as_ho__s who take pride for not working, but jealous towards the MNS offrs. Get urself stand in front of the mirror and then raise fingers at others...
Nursing IS over rated no AMC ASS has written any wrong comment. A five years degree and further sttudies have allowed them a rightful place.
In the Govt Orders its clearly evident that these doctors would move to the HAG+ band from what the army has given them IN THE SAME TIMEFRAME!
AND the nursing Gals the MNS would be where????
pray tell us?
MNS is over paid due to misconstrued reasons. it galls us to see them wearing colonels TABS and asking for perks......to think what all another officer must achieve to deserve the same.
Lobby writer compares Pay band of Lt. Col of regular army with a colonel of military nurse (as per 6th pay commission)not with the same rank of MNS.. where as post 6th pay comm. only MNS cadre was denied Pay Band IV rest all Lt. Col.or parallel rank holders r enjoying the benefits of PBIV.
Y HIDE THE FACTS...B BRAVE AND BEST OF LUCK WITH OROP
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