Tuesday, March 3, 2009
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Feel free to contribute on burning issues concerning the armed forces. Contributions would be acknowledged - Use the 'Comments' tab or email navdeepsingh.india[at]gmail.com. No operational/business/commercial matters to be discussed please. Legal advice/litigation related issues would strictly NOT be published or discussed or entertained. Information on this blog is opinion based and is neither official nor in the form of an advice. This is a pro bono online journal in public service related to issues, policies and benefits, and the idea behind it is to educate and not to create controversy or to incite. Be soft in your language, respect Copyrights.
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- Uncle Sam’s military life
- Raksha Mantri assures sympathetic and prioritised ...
- Where are you now Mr Gupta ?
- Definition of ‘Ex-serviceman’ : varied vintage
- Slip from the ladder
- Rejoice Military moms !!!
- Abhinav replies and amplifies : join the debate
- Two things of significant importance
- Stretching Abhinav’s argument further : history sp...
- Please V.O.T.E. : The genesis of non-participation...
- When do we get to see this here on our land ?
- Oh oh Abhinav, wrong number !!
- Equity and equality, Indian Railways style
- Blowing my own trumpet, sorry :-)
- Now that Lt Cols are in Pay Band-4, I don’t mind s...
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36 comments:
Dear Navdeep Sir,
thanks a lot for this presentation.
Regards,
BC
Dear Major Navdeep,
Thank you for sharing the very useful information with complete background.It is eye opening article/presentation.
Cases of civil services are taken up to higher authorities/pay commissions by professionals with complete background and knowledgeables. I must refrain from commenting as to how services have been relegated to.???
Hi Maj Navdeep
Great work & thanks a lot for the yeoman service.
I always suspected that you were helping the Services in PC related issues.
I am very glad that my suspicion has come true
This is an excellent work with great efforts.Though over the years status of Defence Offrs/PBOR vis Civ offrs have been lowered but I feel we are only responsible for that. Have we given any power /Responsibility to JCO till date?Answer- None not evensigning power of railway warrant, because we are to cautious and want to be in Zero syndorom enviornment where as civ counterpart-Police SI power are well known to all. Similarly Offrs upto Maj level are treated like YOs in Units and if they Miss Board at Lt Col level (Now)They are just not used. I am a live example. I am postgraduate in engineering, Computor and Economics but at the 9 year service I committed a mistake of not pleasing my superior offr ,My career was sealed and since then till now after 25 Year service I got no appointment/posting where I can utilise my education/ experience.So when defence forces don't want to give due authority to their own offrs why should we crib and equate with civs.Be happy in own enviornment!!!!!!!!!
Excellent work, Maj Navdeep, but you said now since LtCols are in PB4, but SAI has not yet come. You are again excellent in giving the latest NEWS very casually. Bravo. Thanks once again, for the exceLlent work for us, the Armed Forces people, by being our VOICE.
Abhinav Kumar's, IPS's article makes some good points. One must understand that this is how civil servants think:
IPS are recruited to man the highest posts of the Union.
Army are hired to do everything from command platoons to lead the army.
This is sophistry of course.
The argument could be made, that IPS officers in the 1950s were expected to lead patrols in cities, and districts, and actually run police stations. They did not rush around with winking red lights and screeching sirens inconveniencing the public, and actually worked for their ranks, so why are they insisting on parity with armymen who still commmand and lead their men?
But he makes some arguments which must be answered:
1. Lt Cols no longer have the responsibility they used to. They are being treated like lower ranked officers by the army itself, so why should civil services take them seriously?
Answer:
Ensure that Lt. Cols have the same grade pay as DIG's after 13 years service, (8900), and have them command batallions again.
Give full colonels the same grade pay as Jt Secys (10000)
And give brigs the same GP as Addl Secys (12000)
Return command of Regtl centers to full colonels, and return the power and responsibilities of all ranks to what they used to be.
Lt. Gen JFR Jacob once famously lamented, that he had more powers as a major, than Lieutenant Generals have today! He was speaking only half in jest.
dear Navdeep,
thanks for the lovely artical, an eye opener ,i am sure of your valuable contribution to the implitation of pb4,regards kds.
I felt happy to read Abhinav's article. It hides too much inferiority complex. A cool outburst. Without going into details I ask a simple question: Can an IPS DGP summarily award a punishment of imprisonment to a Police Constable serving directly under him ? I will put it in Abhinav's style. Has any governement has confidence in their DGPs and consider him fit enough to vest judicial powers to enable him to award at least two days imprisonment to a Constable? Does he know that the President and our Constitution has so much faith in a Defence Officer that even a Captain with two years service can sentence a Sepoy to imprisonment summarily - a judicial power which even the Chief Justice of india doesnot have? If we put the IPS and IAS toppers through SSB, how many of them will clear it ? Of course if we put the defence officers in an essay competetion along with IAS/IPS most of the defence officers might be at the bottom. How many IPS/IAS are medically and psycholically healthy to get clearance from a Medical Board as competent as our Army Boards? A gate watcher is the most powerful man at the gate. No one can enter without his permission or without defeating him. That does not mean that he is supreme. Please do not compare. Everyone is important at its own place. IAS is diferent rom IPS, which is difeent from a doctor which is difeent from an ISRO scintist which is different from a Defence Officer. Please, please do not compare them. No one is equevalent to another.
Dear Maj Navdeep,
Great presentation and very many thanks for the yeoman service you are rendering to the Services and its members. Thanksonce again..with regards....KVS
@anon 1120 -- in the Indian Air Force more than 90% of the units are still commanded by Wing Commander .Only very Big units which have as many as 60 Officers are under Gp Capt.The value & task both are there but recognition buy ignorant people is not
GREAT PRESENTATION, MAJOR NAVDEEP !!I am told that, the reason for delay of issuing the SAI is that the MoD and services differ over the starting basic pay in PB4 to be given to Lt Col.The MoD has fixed it at 37000/-(approx) but services wanted it at 39000/-(apprx) bcos in civil, the offrs of 10 yrs service at PB4 gets 37000/- and he reaches 39000/ when a major becomes lt Col.
GREAT ANALYTICAL AND CRYSTAL CLEAR PRESENTATION . ALL THOSE ASSOCIATED WITH THE ISSUE ,COULD NOT EVADE OR HOODWINK ANY MORE
MANY PEOPLE IN THOSE PAY COM CELLS OF ARMED FORCES AND THOSE TOP BRASS WERE NOT GOOD ENOUGH TO BRING OUT THESE DOWN GRADATIONS/DISPARITIES TO LIGHT.THEY DID NOT LIVE UPTO THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES,THEY WERE PASSIVE AND NOT BOTHERED FOR DECADES TILL THEY WERE FORCED TO SEARCH THEIR CUPBOARDS FOR SKELLITONS -WITH PREVAILING SITUATIONS OF SERIOUS SHORTAGES AND OFFICERS LEAVING SERVICES.
ALL THOSE PAST ADJ GENS AND CHIEFS WERE RESPONSIBLE FOR THE PRESENT STATE ,BESIDE THOSE OF GOVT.
MANY REGARDS AND THANKS TO NAVDEEP . THE FRATERNITY OF OFFICERS HEREBY CONFER THE RANK OF REAL ADJUTANT GENERAL OF ARMED FORCES TO NAVDEEP........
The presentation- to whome did u pre this?
It is great svc to Army,Navy & AF.
These are no secrets.public awareness on these matters and other related would do GOOD for everybody and the NATION.
The AF do need some reforms .The way imp matters are hidden under carpet without transparency and accontability would lead to HIMALIAN BLUNDERS.
INDIRA GANDHI did say that every com offr can become Brig and equi.It was the top brass who prevented such progression to every com offr.
This PRE is a testimony as how the bureaucracy of civil and Mil was responsible,rather guilty of neglect... of NATIONAL DEFENCE matters.
All those AGs of Army,DIR Pers of NAVY &AF did not obviously present the true parity /disparity for decades at appropriate level of the GOVT.They were unconcerned and passive. They never bothered about the plight of those lower &middle level offrs.
Their interest was only in their own pay ,perks,privelages,further pro,cermonials,protocals......etc.
Now with present conditions and prevailing discontentment ,the presentation by NAVDEEP has resulted in PB_4 to Lt Cols.
THE TRUTH IS IN ALL THE PAST WARS/CONFLICTS/TERROR STRIKES THE CASUALTIES OF INJURIES/DEATH IN OFFICER CATEGORY WERE OF LT COL AND BELOW (only).The real actions are fought at coy level by the leadership of those coy cdrs.To the best of my memory no Gen has ever died during war, for that matter no Brig and couple of Cols.Whereas ,the deaths in rks of Capt,Maj &Lt Col and equi were in thousands.
THE ARMED FORCES CANNOT FIGHT A WAR WITH THAT FEELING OF DISPARITY AND NEGLECT TO THESE MIDDLE LEVEL OFFICERS.
This pre hastened the process of pb-4 to Lt Cols.
Some of those comprative tables ..are right on the bull.So glaring is the disparity that the concerned auth perforce had to conceed PB-4 ,ofcourse 9/11 and the need of ARMED FORCES in those difficult moments also an additional factor.
After the 1971 war once the need was over, the AF were gradually down graded and degraded.
The present AF with prevailing levels of psychophency and low efficiancy.....etc urgently need reforms in NATIONAL interest.
Earlier the better for the COUNTRY .
Dear Navdeep,
I would ,rather, begin by complimenting you for doing a thorough presentation of material which I find very comprehensive ,very competently illustrated to cover the historical background of the main issues involved.
But unfortunately, still ,there is element of indecision left in the minds of the decision makers who have been faltering till date to set the parity demanded by the aggrieved services.There is certainly no conjecture to support the facts brought out so lucidly & candidly in your presentation.Yet ,the Group of ministers/PMO have failed to act & have half heartedly accepted the just demand of raising the Pay band 4 with Grade pay of Rs 8000/- instead of Rs 8700 with the rider of so called restricion placed on about 30 odd deputationists on the flimsy clause of "combat readiness".
I fail to understand the reason for the delay in issue of further instructions.
What kind of delibrations are under consideration by forming another committee to contemplate afresh on deciding the remaining core issues ,which have been postponed indefinitely ?
God help the sensibility of those responsible to sort out the matter which is merely kept pending due to sheer indecisiveness of the authorities both political & other functionaries of the Govt.
With regards,
Wg Cdr (Retd)Sushil Kumar Sudan
Following could be an appropriate fixation in PB-4
Lt Col 37400 + GP 8000
Col (TS) 39690 + GP 8000
Old Lt Col(S)
& Col (S) 39690 + GP 8700
Don't you think that the old LT Col (S) which is present Col (S) has to be recognised ? In any case only pensioner Lt Col (S) wil be left soon. It will be unfair to derecognise their Selection and put them back along with those who missed the boat unfortunately. Similarly a Col (S) has also need to be recognised and differentiated from the Col who missed the boat.
@ Annonymous above at 7.14 am
Sir, with stalwarts like you with such parochial thinking, who needs a babu to do the damage to the Armed Forces!
Disgusting !!
@Harry,
You have hit the nail on the head. We all know what qualities are required to get promoted, the less said the better!!
Anonymous 11:57 AM
You are insulting yourself with your comments.
Annon 07.19 has brought out a point that no one has brought out.A selective Lt Col is a thing of past but can you forget them & what happened to them if they did not get the selective , it was loss of face & two years of service & lower pention
Dear Major Navdeep,
Wish you a very happy birthday . Have a nice time with your family.
Dear All,
Listening to the views of Annoy 7.19 AM, 04 Mar, I believe that the actual reforms in services would set in only when these kind of senior officers with fixed views/ideas fade away.
I am hopeful one day God would give them courage and wisdom to understand the aspirations of young generation.
As Harry said correctly we don't need babus to damage us. An enemy with in.
I second u Harry. It is really Disgusting!!
@ annony at 7:19
I can only say that it is unfortunate that u don't even know ur own status otherwise u wouldn't have written it.
by the way the correct fixation should be like this:-
lt: 5400+ as army basic pay used to start from 8250 and not 8000 in 5th cpc.
capt : 6600
maj: 7600
lt col : 8700+ as they were actually senior to DIRECTORS (IAS).
Col : 8900+ as they were senior to DIG Police.
Brig : 10000
Maj Gen : 12000 as they were equal to Joint Secy when Cab Sec Rank was not there. so as IAS introduced Cab Secy they also quietly removed Asst Secy post from the bottom of their rank structure. so along with lowering of joint secy , poor maj gen also got degraded.
Lt Gen : Secy level so 80,000/-
Gen : 90,000 = Cab Secy.
and
sir can you pl intimate the auth where these time scale ranks are mentioned.
the armed forces rank structure is well know to all of us, i need not elaborate it.
It is shocking that some of us are blogging with little or rather pathetic knowledge of our own service or even own rank.
1. It is not only lt cols but the complete uniformed defence forces that have been degraded and de valued.
2. today Lt has been given the scale which otherwise would have gone to 2Lt.
3. Even today army units are being commanded by Substantive Lt Col.
4. Even by granting PB4 status Lt Col and equivalents are still INFERIOR in STATUS when compared to services like BSF and CRPF.
5. Captains deserve grade pay of 6600. Case of parity should be taken up at all the ranks/grades that are affected.
6. Col(TS) is achieved 6 years later than Selection grade which it self put them behind in seniority and pay & allowances (not to mention the privileges). Even then some of us are so shameless that our happiness comes from others misery. No wonder Our elite Selection grade Cols and above have met this fate.
7. It is never too late to wake up and I hope our brothers Col (Acting) selection grade have read the story about "Indian Crabs and Japanese Crabs". But I guess it is rather difficult to straighten the Curled Tail.
8. May GOD bless all of us and give wisdom which is badly required and in short supply.
The presentation was great and timely.
Now some of those comments-
Absolutely true..that a person who does not know his position of pay /pay scale starts suggesting what should be pay of other officers.this was pricisely the truth of all that down gradation in the past.
The true analysis of sel and time scale promotions of Lt Col & Col:-
1.It is rank of sub-unit & unit cdr.
2.Length of svc as officer,.An officer with 26 yrs of svc of past and present of so called revised rank structure of Lt Col& Col , are one and same.
3.The sel gr pro are about 10 yrs earlier than time scale pro.(i.e) When an officer is pro to that rank after further waiting/svc of about 10 yrs ,he naturally,rationally gets the same pay as so called (COINED) sel gr who was already drawing that pay 10 yrs earlier and further 10 increments since then.
4.What is relevent is the substantive rank for equivalence.
5.The other factor is only 40% intake can get sel pro unlike IAS AND IPS(100% get pro )
6.Every officer goes throug that regorous mil svc irrespective of sel/time scale,in fact the time scale person goes with more rigo of milsvc with hardly any perks/prevelages.
IF SOME BODY IS STIIL SUGGESTING DIFFERENT GRADES FOR SEL &TIME SCALE,THE ONLY PLACE FOR HIM IS... AND HE MUST BE OF NARROW MINDED AND SUB-STD MIND.
Rightly put, Anonymous Mar 05 1:58am.
A sel gr Col gets pay and perks 8-10 years earlier than TS Col.So, that much more than his OWN COURSEMATE who did not make it, whatever the reasons.
On top of this, does a TS Col get rank pay of a Col Sel Gr on reaching 26 years????
NO. I dont think so.
The disparity always remains.
Food for thought??
Just spoken to CDA Fund Archives, Pune.
They have YET TO RECIEVE Govt orders for putting Lt Cols in PB-4.
So much for all efforts.
Dear Navdeep,
Many congrats for the great presentation. Now this is called Home work and getting the facts right. with this presentation if the case cannot be won it canatleast cause few adjournments!!!!.
Now its clear that there has been a systematic degradation of services. But i must say all these has happenned only because the services prefferred to keep their eyes closed or were they told to shutup by the powers that be.
The fact of the matter what Navdeep is doing by shedding his uniform cannot be possible when in uniform. for that u need the unstinting support and backing of our superiors who will be willing to forego their next rank/promotion/plum postings in service interest. Kissi mein woh dum hai kya??
Dear Maj Navdeep,
As usual, a wonderful piece of work, well researched, and very effectively put up. It just goes to prove that you can't put a good man down. The clinching fact is the historic accuracy and appropriateness in the data that you have put up. Finally, it is only a correct presentation of the facts that can shake the foundations of those who tried to bring down the status of the forces.
We in the service and also out of it, need to work towards a common goal and an improvement in our conditions. As long as many of us do not actually sit up and DO something, our condition, whether in the Service or in the country as a whole, will never improve.
Once again, Kudos for all your hard work, and I am sure for the many sleepless nights you must have spent.
Jai Hind
Hello Sir.
The work is flawless. As a young officer of indian army, i dondt know when my country eyes will open and c dat my country is encircled by enemies only. i believe that time so called IAS/IPS will take charge to save d country and proove their iron of looting/officially looting the funds of indian government in the name of "superior race" than the army.
1. First of all there shoud be no comparision.Men in olives, please dont degrade urself by comparing with them.
2. If its really need of the hour, lets exchange the work for one month. Men in olive will be given the charge of local criminals and cities. And men in khakhis will be maning the posts at -40 degree temp, or fighting with the terrorists, away from there families.
Lets c who servives...... JAI HIND
3.
The presentation---absolute TRUTH demonstrated in a way that even a person with poor vision and eye sight cannot evade/dodge/defer the issue. that is how PB-4 is in the pipeline.JAI HO -the spirit of patriotism ,fighting for VICTORY in any future WAR by the middle and lower rank leaders/coy cdrs ,with disregard to so called never ending rat race for pro to higher rks compromising age old values and National interests.
Valour and spirit of sacrifice is fre-requisite for victory in battles ; these qualities would not surface with feelings of disparity and neglect.
GREAT SERVICE TO DEF FORCES AND THE NATION.
Dear navdeep
u must have noticed by now that the detractors of services are not replying/browsing at all!! Further by seeing this presentation, i dont think that they will have anything tosay at all!!!
Major Navdeep Singh
Good presentation and comments.
but dont you think that this furore over comparison over army ranks with civil ranks was obvious? since 6th CPC took it over for the first time (correct my fact if I am wrong)
I have been too lazy to fight my war over pay upgradation (I am a central government employee too) but looking at upgradation of army grades feels we are still at better position.
and you being an army personale too, army has been accussed of too stringent policies of selection and promotion. How do you think the army as an instituion can bring this change within? or I donno whether in India this change of policy within army is also in consideration with MOD?
please guide over few facts!
Harpreet
Maj Navdeep,
Time scale promotion in Navy from commander (time scale) to captain (time scale)has not been implemented as in army and air force. Can you throw some light on this issue since parity in all the three Arms of defence is the norm.
dear navdeep, Army ad for 10+2entry in Delhi HT dtd 5/4/09 states PB-3 for Lt- LtCol. and it seems even army has not received orders for PB-4
Dear Beniwal , if that so i would request you to forward the add on the site & lets see what we can do about the same
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