The placement of 33% Lt Generals in HAG+ has both upsides and downsides. However some of the anger against the move is misplaced. I would attempt to clear some misgivings :
Myth : Only 33% Lt Generals and equivalent would be promoted to HAG+
Reality : Wrong. It is not that only 33% Lt Generals would be able to attain HAG+. The fact is that at any given point of time, only 33% of total number of Lt Generals (excluding Army Commanders and equivalent) would be placed in HAG+. As the top Lt Generals retire, the ones junior down the chain shall get placed in HAG+ by seniority. Hence ultimately, in the present situation (wef 01 Jan 2006), most of the Lt Generals (approximately 90%) should retire from HAG+ and the percentage should further go up with time.
Myth : HAG+ is applicable only to Lt Generals of the Arms
Reality : There is going to be no discrimination between Arms and Services. All Lt Generals shall be placed in HAG+ by seniority.
Myth : The 6th CPC had lowered the status of Lt Generals and the placement of 33% Lt Generals in HAG+ is not a rectification of that anomaly
Reality : The 6th CPC had not tinkered with the status of Lt Generals. Even after the 5th CPC, Lt Generals were lower than DsGP in pay. The following was the pay equation of Three Star officers of the IPS and the Defence Services post-5th CPC which was continued by the 6th CPC :
Addl DGP = Lt Gen
DGP
Selected DGP CPOs = Lt Gen (Army Commanders)
After placement of 33% Lt Gens in HAG+, following is the situation now :
Addl DGP = Lt Gen
DGP = Lt Gen (top 33%)
Selected DGP CPOs / DGP (One Cadre post) = Lt Gen (Army Commanders and Corps Commanders who are not placed as Army Commanders due to lack of residual service)
While some officers have argued (and in a sense rightfully so !!) that the Military should have refused the 33% offer, my personal humble opinion is that had we not accepted the 33% figure, it would have resulted in all Lt Generals remaining below DsGP. It was nothing or something, and in such a situation, ‘something’ may have been thought of as a better choice by the services - while the scope of further improvement always remains valid. In the ultimate analysis, this should be better than shutting the door once and for all. By the way Lt Gens in HAG+ shall now be equated with Special Secys to Govt of India.
Myth : The Govt should have (and could have) granted HAG+ to all Lt Gens
Reality : The HAG+ is a promotional upgradation from HAG with a minimum amount of residency period required in HAG in consonance with the respective service rules. There is no service under the Govt where an officer can move up from SAG level directly into HAG+ and there is no service or cadre wherein 100% officers of the HAG are promoted to HAG+. The number of officers moving up from HAG to HAG+ in every service remains quite low. There is no practice anywhere in the govt of placing all officers of a cadre in HAG+.
The pitfalls :
(a) Pension for pre-2006 Lt Generals who retired from the erstwhile HAG remains a grey area but I’m sure Services Headquarters must be deliberating this issue with the govt. Ideally, the pension of retired Lt Gens should also be fixed at HAG+ level since from now onwards almost all are going to retire in that grade.
(b) The issue of some Corps Commanders being in HAG while DsGP of States being in HAG+ needs to be addressed from an operational point of view. However as far as the status equations are concerned, the Warrant of Precedence (amended till 2008) is very clear on this aspect. In the WoP, a Lt Gen features on Article 24 followed by DsG CPOs on Article 25 while State DsGP are not even listed on the WoP.
Myth : Only 33% Lt Generals and equivalent would be promoted to HAG+
Reality : Wrong. It is not that only 33% Lt Generals would be able to attain HAG+. The fact is that at any given point of time, only 33% of total number of Lt Generals (excluding Army Commanders and equivalent) would be placed in HAG+. As the top Lt Generals retire, the ones junior down the chain shall get placed in HAG+ by seniority. Hence ultimately, in the present situation (wef 01 Jan 2006), most of the Lt Generals (approximately 90%) should retire from HAG+ and the percentage should further go up with time.
Myth : HAG+ is applicable only to Lt Generals of the Arms
Reality : There is going to be no discrimination between Arms and Services. All Lt Generals shall be placed in HAG+ by seniority.
Myth : The 6th CPC had lowered the status of Lt Generals and the placement of 33% Lt Generals in HAG+ is not a rectification of that anomaly
Reality : The 6th CPC had not tinkered with the status of Lt Generals. Even after the 5th CPC, Lt Generals were lower than DsGP in pay. The following was the pay equation of Three Star officers of the IPS and the Defence Services post-5th CPC which was continued by the 6th CPC :
Addl DGP = Lt Gen
DGP
Selected DGP CPOs = Lt Gen (Army Commanders)
After placement of 33% Lt Gens in HAG+, following is the situation now :
Addl DGP = Lt Gen
DGP = Lt Gen (top 33%)
Selected DGP CPOs / DGP (One Cadre post) = Lt Gen (Army Commanders and Corps Commanders who are not placed as Army Commanders due to lack of residual service)
While some officers have argued (and in a sense rightfully so !!) that the Military should have refused the 33% offer, my personal humble opinion is that had we not accepted the 33% figure, it would have resulted in all Lt Generals remaining below DsGP. It was nothing or something, and in such a situation, ‘something’ may have been thought of as a better choice by the services - while the scope of further improvement always remains valid. In the ultimate analysis, this should be better than shutting the door once and for all. By the way Lt Gens in HAG+ shall now be equated with Special Secys to Govt of India.
Myth : The Govt should have (and could have) granted HAG+ to all Lt Gens
Reality : The HAG+ is a promotional upgradation from HAG with a minimum amount of residency period required in HAG in consonance with the respective service rules. There is no service under the Govt where an officer can move up from SAG level directly into HAG+ and there is no service or cadre wherein 100% officers of the HAG are promoted to HAG+. The number of officers moving up from HAG to HAG+ in every service remains quite low. There is no practice anywhere in the govt of placing all officers of a cadre in HAG+.
The pitfalls :
(a) Pension for pre-2006 Lt Generals who retired from the erstwhile HAG remains a grey area but I’m sure Services Headquarters must be deliberating this issue with the govt. Ideally, the pension of retired Lt Gens should also be fixed at HAG+ level since from now onwards almost all are going to retire in that grade.
(b) The issue of some Corps Commanders being in HAG while DsGP of States being in HAG+ needs to be addressed from an operational point of view. However as far as the status equations are concerned, the Warrant of Precedence (amended till 2008) is very clear on this aspect. In the WoP, a Lt Gen features on Article 24 followed by DsG CPOs on Article 25 while State DsGP are not even listed on the WoP.
26 comments:
It shows that we have made a good fool of Govt.
Dear Navdeep,
Thanks for educating us.
Best
CHeers
That is the problem of our retd Generals. They did not do anything while in service and when a positive stride has been made they are running down the establishment.
We should realize that the govt has to maintain a balance between various services. All this talk of 'rejecting' 33% placement is self-defeating. One should take it and then fight for more and the services have taken a good decision.
33% of us would be equal to DGs in pay now.
These retired Generals who without being in proper knowledge of the issue are making a hue and cry are totally cut off from reality.
Thank you Navdeep for clarifying and putting major 'doubts' to rest. Although you have in a balanced way stated the negative aspects too.
Navdeep, this inflexibility of us has been our undoing. What is wrong in 33%, let's take it and come back on the negotiation table again.
I have recd mails from retired generals talking ill of this move. I think it's a progressive step, even if I don't get my revised pension in accordance with HAG PLUS
A retired Lt General
It would be intersting to know how the seniority would be counted.Will it be by IC No or date of promotion to Lt Gen. ?
Navdeep,
Excellent explaination. I believe even Govt (if try) may not be able to explain the policy in such a beautiful manner.
Well! Thats what a positive thinking is Navdeep.
Find something Good in every wrong.
And the result is there of positive thinking.
GOOD or bad I am sure every one will have his own opinion.
What Say?
Samy :-)
Had we remained with the negative vibes, today all Lt Cols would have been in PB-3 and all Lt Gens in HAG and below DsGP.
We must move on step by step without rhetoric and convince the powers that be with logic that cannot be defied or denied.
WELL SAID NAVDEEP ABOUT THE NEED FOR LESS RHETORIC AND MORE LOGIC BASED ACTION.
IN FACT, YOU COULD ASK FOR A BRAIN STORMING SESSION WITH ALL INTERESTED BLOGGERS AS TO WHAT IS THEIR ( WELL THOUGHT OUT) WAY AHEAD AS FAR AS THE PARITY ISSUE IS CONCERNED.
U COULD COLLATE AND REFINE THE INFO AND PRESENT IT TO THE POWERS THAT BE WITH A DASH OF UR MAGIC.
COULD BE A BEGINNING-
I think there is a bit of a misconception here.
In fact, ALL DGP's were in the pre-revised HAG+ grade under the 5CPC, and DG's of CPO's were not, as claimed, in 26,000/- (fixed).
Some websites of CPO's were showing the DG as being in 26,000, however, they were simply at the top end of the 24050-26000 scales.
The IPS civil list had started showing all DG'sP at 26,000 even under 5CPC, but it was incorrect information, or rather, disinformation.
The grant of the apex grade, equivalent to secretaries, was not made to ANY IPS officer, until the 6th CPC.
Even the Secretary, R&AW, was a cadre post of the RAS, to which an IPS officer was deputed, and retired from, if he was to attain it.
Again: NO IPS officer was in the grade of 26,000/- (Fixed), under 5CPC, as far as I know.
@NAVDEEP SIR,
I differ because :-
1. Myth 1 :- Lt Gen were senior to DGPs till 5th CPC introduced this anomaly by placing Lt Gen = Addl Secy.
Now by placing only 33% of them in HAG+, Govt has effectively created a Rank within a Rank. Then how can we say that it is a correct and justified decision by placing 33% only in HAG+.
2. Myth 2:- Under the present situation, this is a welcome step. But at Col itself the army is following a 1-2-3 promotion policy that means the offrs of support arm and services will lose 1-2 yrs seniority to there inf counterparts and this will continue there afer and this will affect this promotional prospects from Brig onwards, many may not reach to Lt Gen rank itself.
3. Myth 3:- Govt has used 5th CPC anomaly to arrive to the current decision, hence the 5th CPC anomaly has lead to degradation of 67% Lt Gens.Even if it means for a limited duration.
Therefore on a wider platform its not up-gradation of 33% Lt Gens Rather its de-gradtion of all Lt Gens as ideally they should all have been even higher than DGPs in pay grade.
4. Myth 4:- Govt has introduced AN ADDL GRADE of HAG+ in ARMED FORCES, there by denying and slowing down promotion in top brass. and if this is the case then how come IAS are jumping from Addl Secy to Secy without getting Appt as Spl Secy.
5. Myth 5: The WoP has lost iits sanctity in the present situation where perks and privileges are directly linked to Grade Pay or for that matter now in terms of equivalence with
IAS Cadre, Secondly who stops the govt in ammending the WOP in future, if they can neglect WoP and fix lower scales of armed forces then they can very well amend the WoP too.
Dear Maj Navdeep,
Thanks for attempting to clear the mist.
You said "Myth : The 6th CPC had lowered the status of Lt Generals and the placement of 33% Lt Generals in HAG+ is not a rectification of that anomaly.
Reality : The 6th CPC had not tinkered with the status of Lt Generals. Even after the 5th CPC, Lt Generals were lower than DsGP in pay..............."
Lt. General/ equ.,22400-525-24500 were placed in Grade Pay Rs.12000 in PB-4.This was the Addl DGP Scale in the pre revised 5th CPC.
But practically the Lt Gen would have had their pay starting at 24800 with the addition of rank pay of their Brig stage continuing thro Maj.Gen to Lt.Gen.Even in the Revised PB4 Scale with GP 12000, the Lt Gen pay would have had the addition of MSP of 6000 to the pay and thus the Basic Pay would have reached close to the ceiling of HAG+,that is 80,000, for most Lt Gen.
Now,5th CPC DsGP were only in pre-revised S32 pay scale of Rs.24050-26000.
This scale post 6th CPC is Rs.75500- (annual increment @ 3%)-80000 designated as HAG+, carved out of PB-4.
Thus there was a case for arguing that the Lt Gen was in the erstwhile S32 Scale and should have moved to HAG+
Again you said "Myth : The Govt should have (and could have) granted HAG+ to all Lt Gens
Reality : The HAG+ is a promotional upgradation from HAG with a minimum amount of residency period required in HAG in consonance with the respective service rules. There is no service under the Govt where an officer can move up from SAG level directly into HAG+ and there is no service or cadre wherein 100% officers of the HAG are promoted to HAG+. The number of officers moving up from HAG to HAG+ in every service remains quite low. There is no practice anywhere in the govt of placing all officers of a cadre in HAG+."
There are several instances where in one intermediary scale was skipped in a particular cadre /service. For example the scale with GP of 6100 is not there in many cadres/services;that with GP of 8900 and again the HAG+ are skipped in the IAS . Even within the defence family, the DRDO is said have approached the government to skip the stage of GP of 8900 in their cadre.
If one is certain of an assured promotion, one may skip the stages with a low GP difference.The argument may be that a promotion must get a substantial rise in the total emoluments.
Therefore the scale of HAG could also have been skipped in the military.
You said "The pitfalls :
(a) Pension for pre-2006 Lt Generals who retired from the erstwhile HAG remains a grey area but I’m sure Services Headquarters must be deliberating this issue with the govt. Ideally, the pension of retired Lt Gens should also be fixed at HAG+ level since from now onwards almost all are going to retire in that grade."
The way this anomoly will be dealt with will be interesting for all the officers in PB4.The pre 2006 Lt Gen are in PB4 when pensions are concerned.If the government decides to award them the minimum of HAG+ pension, then it is OROP !
Thank you Maj Navadeep for the excellent appreciation of the issue. The so called status equations dictated by various Pay Commissions including the 6th one also called Pay Commission has no bearing with the ground realities so long as the Warrant of Precedence is not meddled with. So long as the Lt Gen is continued to remain under Article 24 and the DGPs in Article 25 of WoP, there is no problem at all.
Normaly there is no ground for conflict between these two ranks. Unless specifically placed Under Command, no civilian or other type of officer can be a superior Officer of a defence Service (IC type) Officer, there is no scope of a Lt Gen coming under a DGP whatever the Pay Commission rattle out. The only chance of such conflict could be when the Lt Gen or DGP arrange a confenrence. The WoP being very clear, there is no issue. Lt Gens should be happy for the benefit they derrived only due to the PB4 issue. Otherwise no one would have bothered about them and they themselves remain incapable to open their mouth. The matter ends here.
this might be a positive step but what about the gp for maj, col etc
how much time is it likely to take
why should our officers miss the benefits of higher gp inspite of putting more years in service
certainly these things will matter later when housing, td and many other allownaces will be very less for our officers
why should we also go for time based gp, i think govt cannot say no to it if it is applicable to all other all india services
@Aditya @ 10.02 AM
Please go through para 3.2.11 of the 6th CPC, it shall clarify the matter.
DsG of BSF and CRPF were in the erstwhile apex scale of Rs 26000 fixed equal to Secy to Govt of India.
@Anony @ 10.55 AM
If by applying HAG+ to the defence services, a 'rank within a rank' has been created then the same is equally applicable to all services where HAG+ is granted. In every single service with HAG+, some offrs are upgraded from HAG to HAG+.
@Penmil @ 11.33 AM
The IAS never had HAG+ but the IPS always had an eqvt grade of 24500-26000 which has been converted into HAG+. In fact, the presence of HAG+ makes the promotional aspects better than not having it at all. If you want the military to skip HAG+, then you would have all Lt Gens retiring at HAG and only a miniscule minority making it to Apex Grade (Army Commander). What would you like ? All Lt Gens retiring at HAG or all retiring from HAG+ ? It was us who had sought HAG+ for a correct equation with DsGP, wasn't it ? Can we go back on that demand and settle for a degraded and depressed scale for all Lt Gens vis-a-vis DsGP?
Dear Navdeep, you said that the HAG + will be applicable to ALL arms and services. wonder how they will fix the seniority of AMC, AD Corps & RVC Viz the others!
Daer Navdeep,
May I request you to kindly give a write up on Col TS.The write up may cover reducing service celing for Col TS to 20 yrs from 26 yrs post AVSC II implementation. Additionally retirement age of Col Select and Col TS be made same.
It would be a great favour to the 70% of the officers who would retire as TS only.
There are many in the corridors of power who listen to your views.
Thanks and Regards
Dear Navdeep
I have just read your article about HAG+. I like to take you back to 60's and early 70' when DsGP used to be equvilent to Addl.Secy, GOI and Lt. Gen of Indian Army irrespective of the appointment. By and by, Indin Police has been able to upgrade themselves to a level where we find Lt. Gen to be lower to D SGP's of the state.
The WOP in State will automatically place the DGP's far above the Lt. Gen(s), though it is a fact that WOP of GOI may not recognize their position.
However, the 33% acceptance is still welcome and the Political Leadership should be complimented for accepting the views of three Service Chiefs.
Thanks
Wg Cdr S.K Verma (retd)
NAVDEEPJI,
I ENDORSE ANONYMOUS VIEW AT 9.46 THAT A SOLID CASE FOR COL (TS) IN 20 YRS BY YOU TO THE AUTHORITIES WILL HELP MAKE A LOT OF HEADWAY.
WHAT SAY ?
(NOT FOR POSTING IN THIS BLOG)
Dear Maj Navdeep,
Abolition of the rank Lt Col (Selection) coupled with the 6PC orders has caused following damages to the Lt Col(S)
1.Status of Lt Col (S) is made at par with Lt Col (TS). This amount to their demotion. As per the latest known position, a Lt Col (S) and Lt Col (TS) will start at the same pay.
2. A Lt Col (S) and Lt Col (TS) pensioner of pre 2006 will start at the same pension
3. In case of retired Officers, there being no Lt Col (S), he is considered as Lt Col (TS). This is a demotion
In fact Lt Col (S) is Col (S). There is no reason why Lt Col(S) serving and retiree Lt Col (S) are notionally made Col (S) and given the same pay and grade pay of Col (S). After few years there will not be any Lt Col (S) in service. They will be found only as pensioners. Don't you think that they deseve their due.
I request you to be kind enough to consider this issue and make a post invitting comments
LT GEN / EQU OFFICERS WHO COULD NOT BE CONSIDERED FOR UPGRADATION TO THE GRADE OF ARMY COMMANDER/EQU WILL BE PLACED IN APEX SCALE OF 80,000/- ON NON FUNCTIONAL BASIS. HENCE SUCH LT GEN/EQU OFFICERS WOULD ENJOY ONLY HIGHER SCALE AND NOT HIGHER STATUS. THEREFORE, THE CLAIM MADE BY SOME THAT CORPS COMMANDERS WHO ARE TO BE PLACED IN APEX SCALE BECAUSE OF LACK OF REQUISITE NUMBER OF YEARS OF SERVICE WOULD BE EQUIVALENT TO DsGP OF CPOs /ONE CADRE POST OF DGP OF EVERY STATE IN APEX SCALE DOES NOT STAND GROUND.
SPECIAL SECRETARIES TO GOI ARE IN APEX SCALE AND NOT IN HAG PLUS. SO, WILL IT BE ACCEPTABLE THAT LT GENS IN HAG PLUS ARE TO BE EQUATED TO SPECIAL SECYS TO GOI?
STATE GOVTS IMPOSE THEIR OWN WARRANTS OF PRECEDENCE AND IN A SITUATION WHERE MORE THAN ONE WoP IS FOLLOWED, STANDING OF LT GENS IN TABLE 24 OF CENTRAL WoP IS UNLIKELY TO BE OF RELEVANCE IN CEREMONIES/OTHER GATHERINGS OF STATE GOVTS INVOLVING DEFENCE OFFICERS. MOREOVER, SCOPE OF WoP IS LIMITED TO SOME GATHERINGS ONLY.
IT IS TRUE THAT ALL LT GENS (EXCEPT ARMY CDRS) WERE IN HAG PAY SCALE TILL 31 DEC 2005.
APART FROM PAY PARITY, IT IS IMPERATIVE THAT DEFENCE OFFICERS AND PBOR ALSO WEAR THE SAME RANK INSIGNIA THAT THE POLICE OFFICERS AND THEIR SUBORDINATE PERSONNEL WEAR. GRADE PAY OF A LIEUTENANT (5400) DOES NOT SERVE THE DESIRED PURPOSE WHEN HE/SHE IS TO WEAR ONLY TWO PIPS ON SHOULDERS WHEREAS ASP/DSP WEAR THREE STARS REGARDLESS OF THEIR GRADE PAY. THOUGH SOME ASPs MAY BE WEARING ONE/TWO STARS FOR A VERY BRIEF TENURE. SIMILARLY, GRADE PAY OF 2800 GRANTED TO A MILITARY SERGEANT DOES NOT SERVE THE EQUIVALENCE WITH POLICE BECAUSE A POLICE ASI IN GP 2800 WEARS ONE STAR THAT AUTOMATICALLY MAKES ASI SUPERIOR TO A FAUJI HAVILDAR IN PUBLIC GLARE.
@Anony 12:18 PM
Great! When we are thinking of Col(TS)in 21yrs, we have a guy raking up the abolished LtCol(S) issue. The real enemy is within!!
@tks...
ask for brig/maj gen at 20 yrs with gp 10000, why still at col at 20 yrs when all other services r reaching 8700 gp in mere 13 yrs that too incl trg pd.
Dear Annoy..5.57,
What do you mean by 'this guy raking the issue' ? What fair-play, parity, comparrisson with civilians and justice we are talking about when we do not have justification for shooing away the claim of Lt Col (S) ? The so called Lt Col (TS) vis-a-vis Col (TS) who want to get equatted with Col (S)were junior to Lt Col (S). You know very well why they were junior. Are you telling them " FO with your seniority ! Your rank is abolished and you are a non-entity" ? Of cource they are likely to go to court and get the issue sorted out after everyone receive their PB4 benefits. Please have a heart. They too deserve justice. Any justification for this atrocity ?
The real enemy is within. It iss the higher bosses within the org who are hell bent to implement Mandal Commission within the forces. The talk of 0,2,5 now for promotion to Col is an example. Offrs of services are waiting to pick up even after approval for more than a year where as vacancies are lying vacant in arms. Offrs2-3 yrs junior have been promoted in the arms whereas services offrs wait for 1-2 yrs even after their approval. Now the decision of 5 yrs command for services to reduce their take of AVSC vacancies. Maj Navdeep, could you clarify the legal aspects of the matter as the govt has not released the vacancies arm wise nor were they demended that way. Now with the reduction of service for substantive Col to 15 yrs this pinches on salary too.
Though you have mentioned that HAG+ has been approved for Lt Gens, copy of the said orders has not been given with your blog unlike earlier oders on various aspects of 6 CPC including Lt Col in PB-4.Could you kindly do so for the informationof all of us and oblige?
Post a Comment